Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

Posted: **Sat Oct 29, 2016 7:12 am**

Bernard Muller wrote:
The Suffering Servant died, If he were seen as the Messiah, then he would HAVE to be resurrected in order to return on Judgement Day.

I can agree if that suffering servant and Messiah are replaced by "king of the Jews".
And I do not think that flogging and crucifixion would make someone a suffering Messiah, because flogging & crucifixions were common in these days (so we would have many suffering servants!).
How did Jesus come to be believed "king of the Jews" in a few words: http://historical-jesus.info/digest.html

Cordially, Bernard

Do you have a place for Isaiah 53 in your analysis? I see it as potentially the main reason why either Jesus came to be seen as the Savior who was resurrected, or why a Jesus was deemed in the minds of people to have been a Savior sometime in the distant past. Certainly by the time of GMark this was clear since the events of the crucifixion so closely match Isaiah 53. Paul doesn't seem to reference it very much directly though which is a bit problematic for me, but it seems to jive more with his theology than that of a king of Jews Messiah.

Posted: **Sat Oct 29, 2016 8:26 am**

to TedM,

Do you have a place for Isaiah 53 in your analysis? I see it as potentially the main reason why either Jesus came to be seen as the Savior who was resurrected, or why a Jesus was deemed in the minds of people to have been a Savior sometime in the distant past. Certainly by the time of GMark this was clear since the events of the crucifixion so closely match Isaiah 53. Paul doesn't seem to reference it very much directly though which is a bit problematic for me, but it seems to jive more with his theology than that of a king of Jews Messiah.

Well, I don't see any Suffering Servant in the Pauline epistles, 'Hebrews', and the gospels. The first time Jesus is described as the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is in 1 Clement (who added up flogging 3 times to the original text).
Yes, Paul & and the author of 'Hebrews' did away with Jesus as King, and more so king of the Jews, because that was not appealing for Gentiles. At the same time, they put the Kingdom of God in heaven instead of earth, probably not to offend the Romans. But some more Jewish-like early Christian writings such as gMatthew & Revelation relished Jesus as King, with his Kingdom on earth. And still no Suffering Servant.

Cordially, Bernard

Posted: **Sat Oct 29, 2016 9:36 am**

Bernard Muller wrote:I don't see any Suffering Servant in the Pauline epistles ...

Here's a link to a 308 page Ph.D. dissertation from 2009 by Hon Lee Kwok, titled, "Use of Isaiah in the Pauline Letters". I haven't read much beyond a bit here and there, so am not offering any of my own observations or opinions on this particular work (nor do I have time now to get involved in a further discussion), but here are a few lines from the Abstract ---
https://www.era.lib.ed.ac.uk/bitstream/ ... sAllowed=y

Many may have noticed that Paul employs large number of passages from the book of Isaiah in his various Epistles ...

... Special attention is paid to the interplay of Paul’s reading of the Isaianic texts, the role of the servant figure portrayed in Isaiah 40-66, and his understanding of Jesus as well as his own Gentile mission in the light of Isaiah.

And some concluding remarks from the dissertation ---

It is clear that the various instances of Paul’s use of the Isaianic passages, when they are taken together, have made an impressive case for the argument that Paul must have known a substantial amount of Isaiainc tradition. The most significant cases are attested in his use of the Isaianic servant passages (Isa. 49, 52-53). The appropriation of the relevant Isaianic texts has helped him articulate his understanding of God’s plan of salvation to Israel and humanity as well his own role as an apostle to the Gentiles. (p. 305)

Posted: **Sat Oct 29, 2016 10:40 am**

to robert j,
Kwok has Ro 10:16 coming from Isaiah 53:1, Yes, very likely, but Paul did not associate his verse with the Suffering Servant, according to the textual context of Ro 10:16.
Kwok has 2 Cor 4:11 somewhat inspired from Isaiah 53:12. But that's rather far-fetched:
2 Cor 4:11 "For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh"
Isaiah 53:12 "Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."
I do not see here much of any connection. And these two verses from Paul are the only ones, according to Kwok, which link with Isaiah 53.

Yes Paul used Isaiah, but there is no evidence he used the Suffering Servant from Isaiah. Actually I think Paul took the Sacrifice for atonement of sins from the author of 'Hebrews', who explained it (at length) through OT passages other than Isaiah 53 Suffering Servant.

Cordially, Bernard

Posted: **Sat Oct 29, 2016 11:52 am**

Bernard Muller wrote:Yes Paul used Isaiah, but there is no evidence he used the Suffering Servant from Isaiah.

I have other fish to fry now besides whether Paul made reference to what is considered to be the suffering servant of Isaiah 53.

You've probably read way more of Kwok's dissertation than I have (I haven't got beyond the Abstract and a few concluding remarks), but the passage I quoted from his concluding remarks stuck me as consistent with my previous understanding of Paul's use of Isaiah in a wider context than just chapter 53. Kwok uses the concept of "the Isaianic servant passages (Isa. 49, 52-53)" as reflecting Paul's ideas on not only God's plan of salvation, but also Paul's own role. As I have argued before, Paul was prone to applying scriptural typologies to himself.

Again, from Kwok's dissertation ---

It is clear that the various instances of Paul’s use of the Isaianic passages, when they are taken together, have made an impressive case for the argument that Paul must have known a substantial amount of Isaiainc tradition. The most significant cases are attested in his use of the Isaianic servant passages (Isa. 49, 52-53). The appropriation of the relevant Isaianic texts has helped him articulate his understanding of God’s plan of salvation to Israel and humanity as well his own role as an apostle to the Gentiles. (p. 305)

And now, I really am going to move on.

Posted: **Sat Oct 29, 2016 12:08 pm**

Regarding the Suffering Servant and early Christianity, there is some debate about whether or not the Dead Sea Scrolls also refer to the Suffering Servant in 4Q541 (and whether or not it also refers to crucifixion). I tend to stay away from fragmentary texts like this, but it's an interesting question considering other similarities between the DSS and Christianity (such as references to the poor, the way, and the new covenant in a place called Damascus).

There's some good discussion and several translations of it here (pg. 106-118):

https://books.google.com/books?id=kSawg ... ch&f=false

And Martinez writes:

This text also shows us that the portrayal of this Messiah-priest with the features of the Suffering Servant of Deutero-Isaiah is not an innovation of purely Christian origin either, but the result of previous developments ... Whatever might be the possible allusion to the death of the expected Messiah-priest, the identification of this figure with the Servant of Isaiah seems confirmed by the parallels...

https://books.google.com/books?id=nmvkd ... on&f=false

And Brooke discusses these parallels here:

https://books.google.com/books?id=t7TSr ... 41&f=false

And Eisenman's translation and reconstruction of the Aramaic is here (in section 28, "A Firm Foundation"):

Column 4

(1)... his Wisdom [will be great.] He will make atonement for all the children of his generation. He will be sent to all the sons of (2) his [generation]. His word shall be as the word of Heaven and his teaching shall be according to the will of God. His eternal sun shall burn brilliantly. (3) The fire shall be kindled in all the corners of the earth. Upon the Darkness it will shine. Then the Darkness will pass away (4) [from] the earth and the deep Darkness from the dry land. They will speak many words against him. There will be many (5) [lie]s. They will invent stories about him. They will say shameful things about him. He will overthrow his evil generation (6) and there will be [great wrath]. When he arises there will be Lying and violence, and the people will wander astray [in] his days and be confounded.

Column 6

(1) God [will set] right error... [He will judge] revealed sins... (2) Investigate and seek and know how Jonah wept. Thus, you shall not destroy the weak by wasting away or by [crucif]ixion... . (3) Let not the nail touch him. Then you shall raise up for your father a name of rejoicing and for all of your brothers a [firm] Foundation. (4)... You shall see and you shall rejoice in the Eternal Light and you will not be one who is hated (of God).

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/scrol ... ered05.htm

Posted: **Sat Oct 29, 2016 1:45 pm**

Kwok sees a link between
Rom 15:21 "But as it is written, To whom he was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand."
Isa 52:15 "So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider."
But Romans 15:21 textual context has nothing to do with the Suffering Servant.

Kwok made also a connection between Ro 10:17 and Isa 52:7 but none of these two verses relates to the Suffering Servant according to the textual contexts.

Finally, Kwok sees " LINGUISTIC  LINK  OF  GAL. 1:15‐16  AND  ISA. 49:1‐6".
Well, maybe, but the link is just linguistic.

Now I think I accounted for all the "links" from the Pauline epistles to Isaiah 49 & 52-53.

I still do not see Paul making use of the Suffering Servant or referring to it.
Sure Paul knew about Isaiah and his book, quoted, paraphrased some of its verses and therefore knew about the Suffering Servant, but never made any kind of argument from him (same for the author of Hebrews who had motives to use the Suffering Servant of Isaiah to explain the reason (atonement of sins of many) for the suffering and sacrifice of Christ).

PS: Kapyong would say: 'Isaiah' had been out for a long time before the 1st cent. => the author of Hebrews had motives to overtly mention the Suffering Servant of Isaiah => But he did not, so 'Isaiah' was quasi-secret and hidden (not in publication).

Cordially, Bernard

Posted: **Sat Oct 29, 2016 2:27 pm**

Bernard Muller wrote:Now I think I accounted for all the "links" from the Pauline epistles to Isaiah 49 & 52-53.

I do not see where you discuss this one from page 292:

The most clearly expressed idea, of course, is still that Jesus is an example of the Servant of Yahweh par excellence (Isa. 53:6, 11, 12//Gal. 2:20).

In a footnote he adds Romans 4.25, as well, giving us the following:

Romans 4.25: 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification [δικαίωσιν].

Galatians 2.20: 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Isaiah 53.6, 11-12: 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. .... 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify [δικαιῶσαι] many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he has poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Kwok also gives the following in that same footnote:

Romans 5.6, 8: 6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. .... 8 But God commends his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Isaiah 53.8: 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? For he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

And the following:

Romans 5.19: 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made just [δίκαιοι... πολλοί].

Isaiah 53.11: 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many [δικαιῶσαι... πολλοῖς]; for he shall bear their iniquities.

And the following:

Romans 8.32: 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

Isaiah 53.6: 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Finally, Kwok also parallels Romans 8.31b, 33-34 with Isaiah 50.8-9 (same footnote). The parallel here is obvious and strong, but it does not deal specifically with the Suffering Servant.

If you already addressed these, Bernard, I apologize. I did not see them in your posts. Most of these parallels are thematic (one person dying for the rest) rather than strictly verbal, but the several times that Paul discusses "one justifying many" seem to me to derive from the Suffering Servant material.

Ben.

Posted: **Sat Oct 29, 2016 4:48 pm**

to Ben,

If you already addressed these, Bernard, I apologize. I did not see them in your posts. Most of these parallels are thematic (one person dying for the rest) rather than strictly verbal, but the several times that Paul discusses "one justifying many" seem to me to derive from the Suffering Servant material.

No, I did not comment on what you showed. That was not in the table of contents which I consulted.
Yes it is possible, despite the fact Paul used the same word (for "justify") also in Ro 5:18, and the word for "just/righteous" in Ro 5:19 is used seven times in Romans.
But I still do not think Paul based his suffering sacrifice for atonement of sins of many on the Suffering Servant of Isaiah.
Jesus dying for many appears also in 1 Thessalonians 5:9b-10a "... our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us ..."
1 Thessalonians is most probably his 1st epistle. So Paul had that theme very early.
And later, in 1 Corinthians 1:17-31, especially verses 17-18, 21, 23, 30, Paul was rather clueless into explaining the crucifixion of Christ and why "Jesus ... died for us". No mention of for atonement of sins, no appeal to the Servant of Isaiah here, in any ways.
Instead Paul appealed of the foolishness, and the power and the (hidden) wisdom of God.

Cordially, Bernard

Posted: **Sat Oct 29, 2016 6:32 pm**

Bernard Muller wrote:to Ben,
If you already addressed these, Bernard, I apologize. I did not see them in your posts. Most of these parallels are thematic (one person dying for the rest) rather than strictly verbal, but the several times that Paul discusses "one justifying many" seem to me to derive from the Suffering Servant material.
No, I did not comment on what you showed. That was not in the table of contents which I consulted.
Yes it is possible, despite the fact Paul used the same word (for "justify") also in Ro 5:18, and the word for "just/righteous" in Ro 5:19 is used seven times in Romans.
But I still do not think Paul based his suffering sacrifice for atonement of sins of many on the Suffering Servant of Isaiah.
Jesus dying for many appears also in 1 Thessalonians 5:9b-10a "... our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us ..."
1 Thessalonians is most probably his 1st epistle. So Paul had that theme very early.

Whence do you think Paul got the idea that Jesus's death was for anybody?

And later, in 1 Corinthians 1:17-31, especially verses 17-18, 21, 23, 30, Paul was rather clueless into explaining the crucifixion of Christ and why "Jesus ... died for us". No mention of for atonement of sins, no appeal to the Servant of Isaiah here, in any ways.
Instead Paul appealed of the foolishness, and the power and the (hidden) wisdom of God.

I think this section of 1 Corinthians is in response to a Wisdom theology favored by some faction(s) in the Corinthian church; Paul's concepts are moderated to respond to this theology. (I am not prepared to defend this position at this time, as I am currently traveling. But it is one that has been noted and defended rather many times before in various ways.)

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