Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

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I don't know why you've got yourself all worked up. My point of reply in this thread has simply been to point out that it's a mistake to think that a) "archons of this age" can only mean cosmic rulers at the exclusion of earthly ones too, and b) that Ehrman thinks it only means earthly rulers.

If you don't disagree with either point, then cool.

toejam, I derived the view of Ehrman about archons from the post of Carrier. Maybe Ehrman has changed idea from when he replied your question because during the debate, as Carrier reports, he assumes clearly only earthly rulers and not also demons behind the Romans.

I claim that it is NOT a mistake

to think that "archons of this age" can only mean cosmic rulers at the exclusion of earthly ones too,

because the scholar Dale Allison (who I consider equivalent of Ehrman in terms of respect) excludes clearly the third alternative :

Because it is hard to fathom evil spirits, on their own, crucifying Jesus, some have identified “the rulers of this age” with both the governing authorities and the invisible demonic powers that stand behind them and carry out their will through them. Against this, “the angels, when they are concerned with the world of men, may relate to the fate of nations as a whole, but never to the individual king, ruler or government.”

(my bold)

Note that it is not hard but very easy ''to fathom evil spirits, on their own, crucifying Jesus'' in outer space, because there ALL is possible.

MrMacSon, I think that the archons become the Romans even if Mark or proto-Mark was been written BEFORE the 70.
As Andrew Criddle pointed out a time ago, if you put the crucifixion on earth (beyond if Jesus is mythical or historical), then virtually the killers become the Romans, because on earth the crucifixion is only a Roman execution. It is for this reason that I consider ''crypto-historicists'' all the mythicists that put the crucifixion on the earth AND in the recent past.

It's a shame for his position that Paul never DIRECTLY states that Jesus was crucified and buried in outer space.

To my memory, we know that the god Attis died in outer space only because the emperor Julian says us so (in a later time than the I CE).

Ask Ehrman yourself on his blog. He pretty much answers every question. I don't think he's changed his mind. When I asked him probably a year or two ago, he said he wasn't sure but suspected it was a reference to both cosmic and earthly rulers. In the debate I think he just wanted to stress that it wasn't exclusively cosmic rulers.

Being based only on what Carrier says about the debate (my listening of English language is more bad than my writing or reading in it) I have no way to verify (if not to subscribe on his blog as you advice). But beyond what is his opinion, I think that Allison is right about the presence of demons behind an earthly X but only when X is an entire nation (and Pilate is not an entire nation).

Note that in the record the demons are seen behind Pilate only when the entire nation of Judah is considered deicide (surely not in the first gospel), as per Allison's observation.

Who says that it's a reference to only Pilate? No one.

toejam wrote:Who says that it's a reference to only Pilate? No one.

Ops, I have meant, by saying ''Pilate'', all the earthly men (Romans and sinedrites), obviously.

Another evidence that the demons cannot be seen behind the Romans:
1) if the demons are behind the Romans, then the Romans are innocent killers.
2) Paul gives evidence that Jesus was tortured by his killers.
3) the torture is an act of free choice.
4) therefore the killers of Jesus decided freely to torture him.
5) therefore the Romans are not innocent puppets manipulated by demons.
6) Paul HAD to justify WHY Jesus was freely tortured.
7) if the Romans tortured Jesus, then Paul fails to give a justification.
8) if the demons tortured and crucified directly Jesus, then Paul has already given an answer: the demons tortured Jesus because they are DEMONS.

Mythicism wins again and again.

1) if the demons are behind the Romans, then the Romans are innocent killers.
2) Paul gives evidence that Jesus was tortured by his killers.
3) the torture is an act of free choice.
4) therefore the killers of Jesus decided freely to torture him.
5) therefore the Romans are not innocent puppets manipulated by demons.
6) Paul HAD to justify WHY Jesus was freely tortured.
7) if the Romans tortured Jesus, then Paul fails to give a justification.
8) if the demons tortured and crucified directly Jesus, then Paul has already given an answer: the demons tortured Jesus because they are DEMONS.

All this is not to suggest that Paul imagined his own scars to match the lesions on Jesus' tortured body, as though the apostle were a stigmatist like Francis of Assisi.Nonetheless, Gal 6:17 seems to presuppose Paul's physical identification with the wounds of Jesus' crucifixion. Once again, then, one infers that Jesus was not just hung up with ropes and left to die. His executioners rather tortured him, drawing blood and marring his body.

(Dale Allison, Constructing Jesus, my bold)