Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

To Bernard:
Can you give me a link to where TACITUS wrote these words:

They also look on the souls of those ... put to death for their crimes, as eternal."

Bernard Muller wrote:
Tacitus in 'History of the Jews',1 Bk V, Ch V, wrote:

"They [the Jews, likely the Hellenized ones] also look on the souls of those that die in battle, or are put to death [as Jesus?] for their crimes, as eternal."

I do not know of any evidence about Jews believing their ones put to death for their crimes would have their soul made eternal.
I think that Tacitus might have thought of Jesus' execution & later beliefs of Jewish Christians, and then generalized when writing the above.

Cordially, Bernard

1 It's more commonly known as 'Histories' - http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/R ... s/5A*.html -

4 1 To establish his influence over this people for all time, Moses introduced new religious practices, quite opposed to those of all other religions. The Jews regard as profane all that we hold sacred; on the other hand, they permit all that we abhor. They dedicated, in a shrine, a statue of that creature whose guidance enabled them to put an end to their wandering and thirst,9 sacrificing a ram, apparently in derision of Ammon.10 They likewise offer the ox, because the Egyptians worship Apis. They abstain from pork, in recollection of a plague, for the scab to which this animal is subject once afflicted them....


5 1 Whatever their origin, these rites are maintained by their antiquity: the other customs of the Jews are base and abominable, and owe their persistence to their depravity. For the worst rascals among other peoples,15 renouncing their ancestral religions, always kept sending tribute and contributions to Jerusalem, thereby increasing the wealth of the Jews; again, the Jews are extremely loyal toward one another, and always ready to show compassion, but toward every other people they feel only hate and enmity. They sit apart at meals, and they sleep apart, and although as a race, they are prone to lust, they abstain from intercourse with foreign women; yet among themselves nothing is unlawful. They adopted circumcision to distinguish themselves from other peoples by this difference. Those who are converted to their ways follow the same practice, and the earliest lesson they receive is to despise the gods, to disown their country, and to regard their parents, children, and brothers as of little account. However, they take thought to increase their numbers; for they regard it as a crime to kill any late-born child,16 and they believe that the souls of those who are killed in battle or by the executioner are immortal: hence comes their passion for begetting children, and their scorn of death. They bury the body rather than burn it, thus following the Egyptians' custom; they likewise bestow the same care on the dead, and hold the same belief about the world below; but their ideas of heavenly things are quite the opposite. The Egyptians worship many animals and monstrous images; the Jews conceive of one god only, and that with the mind alone: they regard as impious those who make from perishable materials representations of gods in man's image; that supreme and eternal being is to them incapable of representation and without end. Therefore they set up no statues in their cities, still less in their temples; this flattery is not paid their kings, nor this honour given to the Caesars.

Giuseppe wrote:To KK
In virtue of the same logic, since for you Chrestus has to be Christus (since for you Chrestians have to be Christians) then Suetonius is evidence that around his time a story was known that "Christus" was active in Rome under Claudius (!).

If Suetonius is authentic. It would mean that such a story was created before Suetonius or that Suetonius has misunderstood something. But it would be evidence that such a kind of story was not created after Suetonius.

Giuseppe wrote:To Bernard:
Can you give me a link to where TACITUS wrote these words:

They also look on the souls of those ... put to death for their crimes, as eternal."

I got that from the book 'The New Complete Works of Josephus', translated by William Whiston, Commentary by Paul L. Maier, page 1007, near bottom of first column.
It is also here:
https://books.google.ca/books?id=Vb5lAA ... al&f=false

Cordially, Bernard

In this article
http://semiticcontroversies.blogspot.it ... 8.html?m=1

There is new evidence in Seneca (!) about the true identity of the ChrEstiani as gentile Judaizers. Nero killed Poppea because she was one of them.

.
The Myth of the Neronian Persecution
Shaw, Brent D. The Journal of Roman Studies; 105 (2015): 73.

Abstract
A conventional certainty is that the first state-driven persecution of Christians happened in the reign of Nero and that it involved the deaths of Peter and Paul, and the mass execution of Christians in the aftermath of the great fire of July 64 C.E. The argument here contests all of these facts, especially the general execution personally ordered by Nero. The only source for this event is a brief passage in the historian Tacitus. Although the passage is probably genuine Tacitus, it reflects ideas and connections prevalent at the time the historian was writing and not the realities of the 60s.

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Abstract [paragraphed by me]
Paul is arguably the second most important figure in the history of Christianity. Although much has been written about his stay and martyrdom in Rome, the actual circumstances of these events — unless new evidence is uncovered — must remain obscure. In this dissertation I analyze the matter from a fresh perspective by focusing on the formation and transmission of traditions about Paul’s final days.

I begin by studying the Neronian persecution of the year 64 CE, i.e. the immediate historical context in which the earliest traditions were formed. In our records, a documentary gap of over thirty years follows the persecution. Yet we may deduce from chance remarks in texts written ca. 95-120 CE that oral traditions of Paul’s death were in circulation during that period. In chapter 2, I develop a quantitative framework for their contextualization. Research has shown that oral traditions, if not committed to writing, fade away after about eighty years. Only two documents written within that crucial time frame have survived: the book of Acts and the Martyrdom of Paul (MPl). These texts present discrepant versions of Paul’s death that I term respectively the “anti-Judaic” and “anti-Neronian” traditions. Despite Acts’ canonical status, it is Nero’s portrayal as Paul’s arch-enemy in MPl that would capture the imagination of Christians for centuries to come. The apostle’s martyr cult, which is still in existence, constitutes another important tradition. The evidence for its earliest phase is extremely scarce; hence, I attempt to reconstruct its development by analogy with the cult of the Argentinean folk saint Difunta Correa.

The last chapter examines the enduring traditions of late antiquity, a period in which new stories emerged about places in Rome where Paul had been active and about people converted by him. These fictional stories were transmitted through the Middle Ages as if they were true and some of them have endured to our day. All in all, the dissertation explores two overarching themes about the social role of traditions: (1) some traditions, once set in motion, acquire a life of their own, and (2) the group that controls them acquires invaluable political influence.

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Neronianis Temporibus: The So-Called Arae Incendii Neroniani and the Fire of A.D. 64 in Rome's Monumental Landscape Closs, Virginia. The Journal of Roman Studies; 106 (2016): 102.

Abstract
This essay examines the evidence for the Domitianic 'Arae Incendii Neroniani', a presumed set of monumental altars dedicated to Vulcan in fulfilment of a vow dating back to the Neronian Fire of a.d. 64. A close reading of the text of the dedicatory inscription creates a framework for exploring the larger historical and cultural context of these monuments, which offer a significant illustration of Flavian rhetoric concerning Rome's post-Neronian transformation. Reaffirming Julio-Claudian notions of civic identity, collective memory, and the ruler's privileged relationship with the gods, the Arae also constitute a conspicuous form of posthumous reproach to Nero.

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Giuseppe wrote:In this article
http://semiticcontroversies.blogspot.it ... 8.html?m=1

There is new evidence in Seneca (!) about the true identity of the ChrEstiani as gentile Judaizers. Nero killed Poppea because she was one of them.

I assume that you understand my point. I do not discuss the "real" history of persons. I discuss the history and the origin of a story.

Bernard Muller wrote: .......................................................
About Hebrews 11:35: what would be the basis for "Women received their dead by resurrection"?
That phrase is very puzzling.

Cordially, Bernard

http://biblehub.com/commentaries/hebrews/11-35.htm

Those meant are the widow of Sarepta (1 Kings 17:17 ff.), whose son was awakened out of death by Elijah, and the Shunammite woman (2 Kings 4:18 ff.), whose son was raised by Elisha.

Andrew Criddle

Thanks Andrew,
But no crimes committed here! no execution either!
And the resurrections here are more like revivals (well before the body starts to decompose).

Cordially, Bernard

Although the passage is probably genuine Tacitus, it reflects ideas and connections prevalent at the time the historian was writing and not the realities of the 60s.

So Tacitus would have written a novel based on his own times (around 100-115 AD) and not about real events during Nero's rule!
However, I agree that Peter executed by Nero in Rome is strictly legendary.
About Paul, probably but not certainly.

Cordially, Bernard