Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

You also have to consider the relationship of each statement/premise to each other

Bernard Muller wrote:to MrMacSon,

You also have to consider the relationship of each statement/premise to each other

You are right but I made the change already: check my latest posts.

Bernard Muller wrote: they are different ways for implying Jesus had been an earthly human being. Sure, in that way they are related.
And in the same way, they are also related to the others, referring to my updated list of evidence from Paul's epistles, that is 6, 7, 8, 9 & 10:

1) Descendant of Abraham (Gal 3:16) http://historical-jesus.info/18.html
2) Descendant of Israelites (Ro 9:4-5) http://historical-jesus.info/25.html
3) Descendant of Jesse (Ro 15:12) http://historical-jesus.info/60.html
4) Descendant of David (Ro 1:3) http://historical-jesus.info/70.html
5) Having brothers by blood, one of them being James (1 Cor 9:5, Gal 1:19). See Notes 1 and 2
6) becoming from a woman (Gal 4:4) http://historical-jesus.info/18.html
7) "poor, in poverty" (2 Cor 8:9) (can anyone be poor in heaven?) http://historical-jesus.info/21.html
8) "The first man out of the earth, earthy; the second man the Lord out of heaven;" (1 Co 15:47)
9) "the one man Jesus Christ" (Ro 5:15)
10) The crucifixion happening in the heartland of the Jews http://historical-jesus.info/19.html

11) From the tribe of Judah (Heb 7:14) http://historical-jesus.info/40.html

12) "... For surely it is not with angels that he is concerned but with the descendants of Abraham.
Therefore he had to be made like his brethren in every respect, ..." (Heb 2:14-17) http://historical-jesus.info/40.html

13) "In the days of his flesh," (Heb 5:7) http://historical-jesus.info/40.html

14) Tacitus' Annals 15.44 (low because possibly heard from Christians then, which would make it dependent on the gospels)

15) Josephus' Antiquities XX, IX, 1

Bernard Muller wrote: About Ben's statement "descendant of David" is metaphorical or spiritual" I have been thinking:
....

... in Galatians (3:19), Paul's converts are said to be from the seed of Abraham spiritually (because these Galatians, most of them not Semitic, were not likely to be descendant by blood of biblical Abraham).

The same theme is also in Romans (4:16,18) concerning Gentile Christians.

• doesn't that increase the chances that
  
  • "descendant of David", and
  • "seed of Abraham"
  are metaphorical?

• "Descendant of Israelites"
• "Descendant of Jesse"
• "From the tribe of Judah"

• are also metaphorical?

Bernard Muller wrote: or spiritually, these descendants were human and earthly. Even the "sons of God" are also human & earthly.

Bernard Muller wrote: As for "metaphorical", I just cannot see how that could apply to Ro 1:3.

You are right but I made the change already: check my latest posts.

What change?

doesn't that increase the chances that

"descendant of David", and
"seed of Abraham"
are metaphorical?

And it also increase the chances that

"Descendant of Israelites"
"Descendant of Jesse"
"From the tribe of Judah"
are also metaphorical?

And, "by flesh" would also be metaphorical?

met·a·phor
ˈmedəˌfôr,ˈmedəˌfər/
noun
a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable.
"“I had fallen through a trapdoor of depression,” said Mark, who was fond of theatrical metaphors"
synonyms: figure of speech, image, trope, analogy, comparison, symbol, word painting/picture
"the profusion of metaphors in her everyday speech has gotten pretty tiresome"
a thing regarded as representative or symbolic of something else, especially something abstract.
"the amounts of money being lost by the company were enough to make it a metaphor for an industry that was teetering"

Romans 1:1-4"

"1 Paul, a servant/doulos of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2 which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy Scriptures, 3 concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh 4 and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord."

"declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness" is fairly spiritual,

and "according to the flesh" and "descended from David according to the flesh" do not necessarily mean 'truly descended from': they are terms of theological convenience to imply descendence

I know this result already: if A is an interpolation, then B is (likely) also one

MrMacSon wrote:
Romans 1:1-4"

"1 Paul, a servant/doulos of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2 which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy Scriptures, 3 concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh 4 and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord."

• "declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness" is fairly spiritual

Bernard Muller wrote:

• Yes, but that's about "Son of God" not "seed of David".

and "according to the flesh" and "descended from David according to the flesh" do not necessarily mean 'truly descended from': they are terms of theological convenience to imply descendence

• Well, the exact translation is "concerning His Son, (who is come of the seed of David according to the flesh...)" YLT

• Well, "come of the seed of David" means "descended from David"

Definition for metaphor:

• a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action [or person] to which it is not literally applicable.
  
  a thing regarded as representative or symbolic of something else, especially something abstract.

We know what "seed of Abraham" means: millions of earthly humans.

And I do not know of any occurrences of "seed of David or Abraham" referring to strictly heavenly beings (who never lived on earth).

And even if these terms are of theological convenience to imply descendence, they still would imply descendence from David.

• "all the families of the earth will bless one another by your name"

MrMacSon wrote:
Doesn't that increase the chances that

• "descendant of David", and
• "seed of Abraham"

are metaphorical?


And it also increase the chances that

• "Descendant of Israelites"
• "Descendant of Jesse", and
• "From the tribe of Judah"

are also metaphorical?


And, "by flesh" would also be metaphorical?
.

Bernard Muller wrote:

• What metaphors? Explain for each items what would be the metaphor about?

• a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object, [person], or action to which it is not literally applicable.

• a thing regarded as representative or symbolic of something else, especially something abstract [such as a God or a manifestation of one].

• "all the families of the earth will bless one another by your name"

Bernard Muller wrote:
Because, declared seed of Abraham in Paul's epistles:

• 2 Co 11:22: Paul & other apostles
  Gal 3:16: Christ
  Gal 3:29: Galatian converts
  Ro 4:16: Gentiles, Christians, and Jews
  Ro 9:7: Jews
  Ro 11:1: Paul

Bernard Muller wrote: in view that in Paul's times, there were millions of Jews, the probability of Jesus not having been an earthly human is microscopic.

• is a non-sequitur. It is not logical.

Flesh

"The range of meanings borne by this term in the Bible starts from the literal use denoting the material of which the human body is chiefly constructed, but quickly takes on other senses derived from the writers' understanding of the created order and its relation to God."


The Pauline Writings. The uniqueness of these in this regard is sufficiently indicated in that approximately two-thirds of the New Testament occurrences of flesh are found in them, almost half of these in Romans and Galatians. They may be considered in two broad categories.

Uses Akin to the Old Testament. Most of the uses found in the Old Testament are also present in the Pauline literature. There flesh can denote the physical flesh ( 1 Cor 15:39 ; 2 Cor 12:7 ) and, by extension, the human body ( Gal 4:13-14 ); humanity as a whole ( Rom 3:20 ; Gal 2:16 ); human descent ( Rom 1:3 ; 9:3 ); and human relationships ( Rom 4:1 ; 9:3-5 ). By this point the term acquires the transferred sense of that which is frail and provisional ( 1 Cor 1:26 ; Gal 1:16 ; Php 3:3 ). As transient, it is not the sphere of salvation, which is rather the sphere of the Spirit ...

http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/flesh/

My point was that the whole section/passage (YLT) -

"concerning His Son, (who is come of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4 who is marked out Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of sanctification, by the rising again from the dead,) Jesus Christ our Lord"

- is theological, not literal

Does it matter how many humans it might apply to? How many Jews would there have been in Judea, Galilee, and Alexandria in the first century? 100,000

Seed has a long history in the Judaism -eg. In Genesis 12:3 God said to Abraham:

"all the families of the earth will bless one another by your name"

Definition for metaphor:

a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object, [person], or action to which it is not literally applicable.
a thing regarded as representative or symbolic of something else, especially something abstract [such as a God].

"descendant of David", "seed of Abraham", "Descendant of Israelites", "Descendant of Jesse", "From the tribe of Judah", and "by flesh" are all metaphors.

They are all "representative or symbolic of something" as per several OT passages, especially Genesis 12:3 -

"all the families of the earth will bless one another by your name"

Bernard Muller wrote:

Because, declared seed of Abraham in Paul's epistles:

2 Co 11:22: Paul & other apostles
Gal 3:16: Christ
Gal 3:29: Galatian converts
Ro 4:16: Gentiles, Christians, and Jews
Ro 9:7: Jews
Ro 11:1: Paul

Bernard Muller wrote:

in view that in Paul's times, there were millions of Jews, the probability of Jesus not having been an earthly human is microscopic.

is a non-sequitur. It is not logical.