''of the seed of David'' as mythicist evidence

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Giuseppe
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''of the seed of David'' as mythicist evidence

Post by Giuseppe »

People believe that Romans 1:3 is evidence of historicity, or at least neutral evidence.
"concerning His Son, (who is come of the seed of David according to the flesh"
I think it is evidence of mythicism (at 60%).

A modern analogy would be the following claim:
to come on the Moon.
When referred to men of XX-XXI century CE, then that claim may be true, but only for a particulat set of men (cfr the first man on the Moon).

When referred to before that time, that claim is surely 100% false. The men didn't come on the Moon before that time.

But it is still possible that a man claimed (falsely) to be gone on the Moon before that time.


Now note the claim:
to be descendant of David.
May that claim be true when referred to a time when all the possible descendants of David (assuming he esisted) are all dead?
Clearly not. In that case the possible use of the title is a negation of the factual truth.

Note that not even Herod, the King of Judaea, was honoured with the title 'descendant of David'. Because it was simply not true that Herod was davidic. But it is still possible that someone claimed (falsely) to be descendant of David, during the rule of Herod.

Therefore, even if Jesus existed, to call him ''descendant of David'' is equivalent to lie about him: a title that is shown to be empirically false (when it is given to a man of I CE) is not evidence of historicity.


Compare the following propositions:

1) In the year 1500 someone did come on the Moon. FALSE

2) In the 30 CE, someone was descendant of David. FALSE

3) In the year 1500 someone (was) claimed that he came on the Moon. ?

4) In the 30 CE, someone claimed (or was claimed) to be descendant of David. ?


From a false proposition:
''the man X in 30 CE is descendant of David''
it follows that the following implication is wrong:
1) X in 30 CE is claimed to be descendant of David.
2) X existed in 30 CE.
As well as the following implication:
1) X in 1500 CE (was) claimed that he came on the Moon.
2) X existed.

Think the possible effect under the condition that Paul wrote:
...I saw only James the brother of the Lord according to the flesh...
In this case, being the existence of that James already a confirmed fact (per Gal 1:19), it follows naturally that James is the carnal brother of Jesus. But this only because we already agree that the fact ''James existed in 30 CE'' is true.

With ''being descendant of David'' the case is diverse: one cannot NEVER be descendant of David in the real past of 30 CE, therefore if he is proclaimed ''descendant of David according to flesh'' then we can apply the Principle of Contamination of Stephen Law and conclude that the proposition ''someone was proclaimed something that he could never be: descendant of David'' may be true or false with equal probability.

But if I point out that not even Herod - one who had all the interest (and sufficient power) to proclaim himself ''descendant of David'' - claimed for himself that title, then the probability that a historical Jesus was proclaimed ''descendant of David'' is really little.

Taking again my Moon-analogy above, it would be as if we want both true the following two propositions:

1) in the year 1500 someone (was) claimed to be on the Moon.

2) in the year 1500 we know that only Giordano Bruno claimed that the Moon was inhabited by living beings.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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toejam
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Re: ''of the seed of David'' as mythicist evidence

Post by toejam »

The 'going to the moon' analogy is a poor one. It's irrelevant whether or not Jesus *actually was* a descendant of David. Most commentators are fair enough to judge that as unknowable. The point is that Paul makes the claim that Jesus was, evincing that Paul believes Jesus to have been here on Earth. Carrier-style mythicism requires Paul not to believe Jesus was here on Earth. It's a shame then for Carrier-style mythicism that Paul didn't say: "Jesus, a descendant of David according to the cosmic sperm".

Romans 9
"For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my own people, my kindred according to the flesh. They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, comes the Messiah, who is over all..."
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iskander
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Re: ''of the seed of David'' as mythicist evidence

Post by iskander »

toejam wrote:The 'going to the moon' analogy is a poor one. It's irrelevant whether or not Jesus *actually was* a descendant of David. Most commentators are fair enough to judge that as unknowable. The point is that Paul makes the claim that Jesus was, evincing that Paul believes Jesus to have been here on Earth. Carrier-style mythicism requires Paul not to believe Jesus was here on Earth. It's a shame then for Carrier-style mythicism that Paul didn't say: "Jesus, a descendant of David according to the cosmic sperm".

Romans 9
"For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my own people, my kindred according to the flesh. They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, comes the Messiah, who is over all..."
Yes, Paul said that Jesus was a man in Romans 9 .
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Giuseppe
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Re: ''of the seed of David'' as mythicist evidence

Post by Giuseppe »

toejam wrote:The 'going to the moon' analogy is a poor one. It's irrelevant whether or not Jesus *actually was* a descendant of David.
I have not said this, therefore your claim above is clearly a straw man argument.

Most commentators are fair enough to judge that as unknowable.
Really do you think that to be descendant of David was still phisically possible in 30 CE, when even king Herod abandoned that claim ?
The point is that Paul makes the claim that Jesus was, evincing that Paul believes Jesus to have been here on Earth. Carrier-style mythicism requires Paul not to believe Jesus was here on Earth. It's a shame then for Carrier-style mythicism that Paul didn't say: "Jesus, a descendant of David according to the cosmic sperm".
Read better my Moon-analogy in the comparison 1:

Someone (was) claimed to be on the Moon in the year 1500A man (was) claimed to be davidic in the 30 CE
Someone was really on the Moon in the year 1500A man was really davidic in the 30 CE

Can you derive the earthly humanity of that ''someone'' in both the cases from the mere fact that about him it is claimed a CLEARLY FALSE proposition (respectively: that he was on the Moon in the year 1500, and that he was davidic in the 30 CE) ?

And compare that evidence with the hypothetical following comparison 2:

they say that Armstrong is been on the Moon''I saw only James, the brother of the Lord according to flesh''

In both the cases, it is correct to claim that Armstrong existed (even if he was never on the Moon :D ), and that the ''Lord'' existed. Because we at least agree that Armstrong existed and that the existence of James + the construct ''according of flesh'' make the ''Lord'' more probably historical than not.

But from a FALSE proposition (being really descendant of David in 30 CE) you cannot derive a TRUE proposition (the entity X, who was claimed of being descendant of David, existed really in virtue of that claim about him).


You can only prove that X is man, because David can be ancestor only of men.

But also Enoch had an earthly father. And Enoch was an heavenly heaven in the enochic tradition. And Enoch never existed.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Giuseppe
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Re: ''of the seed of David'' as mythicist evidence

Post by Giuseppe »

It's a shame then for Carrier-style mythicism that Paul didn't say: "Jesus, a descendant of David according to the cosmic sperm"
The expression ''cosmic sperm'' is meant to exalt the sperm in question. But the body received by Jesus (in Carrier-style mythicism) and even manufactured by God by the sperm of David, was a corrupted, miserable body of humanoid. Not the divine body of a divine being. That body had to trick the Archons of this eon, therefore it had to be an ordinary humanoid body.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Giuseppe
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Re: ''of the seed of David'' as mythicist evidence

Post by Giuseppe »

from wiki:
Enoch was the son of Jared (Genesis 5:19–21), the father of Methuselah, and the great-grandfather of Noah. At 65 years old, he begot Mathusal [Methuselah];[5] Regim and Gaidad[6] are also mentioned as his sons.

The Bible says that Enoch lived 365 years before he was taken by God. The text reads that Enoch "walked with God: and he was no more; for God took him" (Gen 5:21–24), which can be understood as God taking Enoch to heaven while still alive, body and soul.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enoch_(ancestor_of_Noah)
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Giuseppe
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Re: ''of the seed of David'' as mythicist evidence

Post by Giuseppe »

Just as king Herod, even Bar Kokhba didn't consider even for a single time the possibility of claiming the title of ''descendant of David'' !!!!
From the unique words of Rabbi Akiba on Bar Kokhba (Text 1) and the use of the title Prince on the coins and in the letters of Simon, one cannot learn, in Levin's view, about the messianic nature of the revolt.
Aharon Oppenheimer also restricts the messianic aspect of the revolt and deduces this form the fact that, in the letters and coins, the description of the leader is PRINCE and not KING or MESSIAH.
...
Herr once again discusses this ... In his opinion, the phenomenon of messianism has many facets and varieties. Between the two extremes of realistic political messianism and catastrophic cosmic eschatological messianism, a variety of shades exists. He believes that ''Ben Kosiba himself did not have and was not seen to have the slightest trace of any mystical or apocalyptical experience'', and that the Second Revolt ''was imposed upon him by force of circumstance''.
Efrat Habas-Rubin also rejected the interpretation that regards Bar Kokhba as a messianic figure. In her opinion, the distinction between the titles Prince and Prince of Israel (the title used by Simon Ben Kosiba) is central. His title was chosen to ''emphasize that Bar Kokhba had no pretensions to be considered a member of the Davidic dynasty, or to compete with the royal house of David as it was understood in his period. ..and on the other hand, to stress the political and national character of his leadership...
(The Second Jewish Revolt: The Bar Kokhba War, 132-136 CE
of Menahem Mor, p. 140-141)
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Giuseppe
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Re: ''of the seed of David'' as mythicist evidence

Post by Giuseppe »

What is more probable ?

that a man really existed (and for who we have none other evidence) and was FALSELY claimed to have been a descendant of David - and believed such! - when even King Herod and Bar Kokhba didn't claim falsely to be davidic....

...or that that same man existed in the heaven, where all is possible without no problem or need of an apology ?

The title of ''davidic'' is as ''high'' as any other High-Christological title: this is my view.

Therefore, as per High Christology everywhere in Paul, that is evidence against historicity.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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toejam
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Re: ''of the seed of David'' as mythicist evidence

Post by toejam »

I'm sure you don't believe Bar Kokhba was provably a descendant of Jacob either. Yet the name "Bar Kokhba" ("Son of the Star") was supposedly given to him as a reference to his supposed fulfillment of Numbers 24:17 ("There shall come a star out of Jacob"). If so, then you know that claiming "This dude is a descendant of Jewish hero X!" was common propaganda to bolster the claims for historical Messianic or Messianic-like figures. It's irrelevant as to whether Bar Kokhba actually was or wasn't a descendant of Jacob. There's no good reason to think Paul's "descendant of David according to the flesh" line functions otherwise. Romans 9:5 further solidifies this. Paul considers the Israelites his "kindred according to the flesh" - i.e. Paul was born a Jew, from the tribe of Benjamin (at least so he believed). He describes Jesus as also having come from the Israelites "according to the flesh".
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Re: ''of the seed of David'' as mythicist evidence

Post by arnoldo »

FWIW,
WAR RULE SCROLL

This six-line fragment, commonly referred to as the "Pierced Messiah" text, is written in a Herodian script of the first half of the first century C.E. and refers to a Messiah from the Branch of David, to a judgement, and to a killing. Hebrew is composed primarily of consonants; vowels must be supplied by the reader. The appropriate vowels depend on the context. Thus, the text (line 4) may be translated as "and the Prince of the Congregation, the Branch of David, will kill him," or alternately read as "and they killed the Prince." Because of the second reading, the text was dubbed the "Pierced Messiah." The transcription and translation presented here support the "killing Messiah" interpretation, alluding to a triumphant Messiah (Isaiah 11:4).
https://www.loc.gov/exhibits/scrolls/scr4.html

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