Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

Prof Vinzent has found the following evidence of Marcion's priority over Luke, and hence over Mark himself:

Mark	Luke	Mcn
12:24 Jesus replied, “Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God? 25 When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 26 Now about the dead rising—have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the account of the burning bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’[d]? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!”	20:34 So Jesus said to them, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 20:35 But those who are regarded worthy of that age and of the resurrection from among the dead neither marry nor are married, 20:36 because neither can they die anymore for they will be like angels and sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.” 20:37 But even Moses revealed that the dead are raised in the passage about the bush, here he calls the Lord the God of Abraham and God of Isaac and God of Jacob. 20:38 Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for all live before him.” 20:39 Then some of the experts in the law answered, “Teacher, you have spoken well!” 20:40 For they did not dare any longer to ask him anything.	20:34 So Jesus said to them, “The people of this age being born and giving birth, 20:35 But those who the God of that age regards worthy of being heirs and of the resurrection from among the dead neither marry nor are married, 20:36 because neither do they die anymore for they will be like angels of this God and made sons of the resurrection.” 20:39 In response some of the scribes said, “Teacher, you spoke well.”

Marcion's interpretation of that answer:

That Marcion related in his answer to the future aeon where no longer people were giving birth and were born, married and were married, was, however, a clever move to qualify the Sadducees as people of an aeon which was not that of the supreme God. Or put the other way around, only people who look for a short termed heritage in a world of birth and death could come up with an example like the one presented by the Sadducees.

http://markusvinzent.blogspot.it/2016/0 ... n-and.html

...makes really sense.

See two evident contradictions of Luke (and, I would add, of Mark, too):

In a first moment Luke talks about two aeons and then he, surprisingly, talks about a single life ''encompassing past, present and future''.

In both Mcn and Luke only ''some of the scribes'' react positively. For Marcion this means that some scribes agree with Jesus AGAINST the sadducees. And this is expected because the sadducees are the polemical target of the Marcionite Jesus, in that episode.

Luke cannot explain why only ''some of the experts in the law'' react positively, and not also the sadducees.

Well, prof Vinzent doesn't talk about the relative Jesus's answer in Mark. It is very similar to Luke but see the final:

You are badly mistaken!

(Mark 12:27)

Who did the question in Mark were only the sadducees.

The next question is then: was Mark to remove the scribes from the episode? Or was Marcion to add the scribes in the episode?

In Mcn the function of the scribes is clear: some of them believe that Jesus agrees with them AGAINST the sadducees. Because they know the scriptures and have realized the antithesis between what the scriptures say and the new Gospel preached by the marcionite Jesus. The episode remembers the episode of the child Jesus in the temple, where the experts wondered about the great knowledge of Jesus.

In Mark the scriptures are allied with Jesus against the sadducees, since Jesus quotes them. Therefore no need of scribes who agree with Jesus.

More in general, it would be interesting to know more about the role of scribes as distinct from the role of pharisees and sadducees. The scribes are by definition the people who are experts of scriptures.

Are the same scriptures the fourth enemy of Jesus, after the scribes, the pharisees and the sadducees ?

I find important the passage because it shows the function of the scriptures in Marcion: they appear again and again... ...BUT ONLY WHEN a contrast is in act between the teaching of Jesus and the Jewish tradition. Even as scriptures of a lower creator god, the scriptures confirm, when confuted at every time and episode, the greatness of an alien God.

In the our Gospels, instead, the scriptures show themselves only to reiterate that Jesus is fulfilling them, against the blindness and ignorance of the his enemies.

Giuseppe wrote:Prof Vinzent has found the following evidence of Marcion's priority over Luke, and hence over Mark himself:
...
Marcion's interpretation of that answer:

That Marcion related in his answer to the future aeon where no longer people were giving birth and were born, married and were married, was, however, a clever move to qualify the Sadducees as people of an aeon which was not that of the supreme God. Or put the other way around, only people who look for a short termed heritage in a world of birth and death could come up with an example like the one presented by the Sadducees.

http://markusvinzent.blogspot.it/2016/0 ... n-and.html

...makes really sense.

Well, the truth is that Tertullian made a good argument.

And now the brave Prof. Vinzent argues that Jesus gave this answer out of context because the question was so dumb? And that should be a clever move? But no problem ... At the end Luke seems to be also a bit out of context of the question.

I find the first “γὰρ“ in 20:36 very interesting. The argument of Luke and Marcion seems to be, that they do not marry because they do not die. Probably because the purpose of marriage is giving birth to an offspring?

EDIT: Or because of their new "nature"?

Giuseppe wrote:

Mark	Luke	Mcn
12:25 When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.	20:35 But those who are regarded worthy of that age and of the resurrection from among the dead neither marry nor are married, 20:36 because neither can they die anymore for they will be like angels and sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.”	20:35 But those who the God of that age regards worthy of being heirs and of the resurrection from among the dead neither marry nor are married, 20:36 because neither do they die anymore for they will be like angels of this God and made sons of the resurrection.”

The risk is to do the same error of Tertullian:

For the question he was asked was not about the god of that world, but about its conditions, whose wife the woman was to be in that world, after the resurrection.

although it was the marriage of that world he was asked about, not this, and the marriage he said there was not, was that about which he was consulted

Ask yourself: why the situation described by the sadducees (a woman with 7 husbands, etc) is so grotesque and paradoxical ? Was it so deliberately to do a rethorical point?

That remembers me the apparent cause of the war between Lilliput and Blefuscu, in the famous novel of Jonathan Swift: on which side to break rightly the eggs?

Clearly the point of Swift is the irrationality of the war - of any war.

Also in this episode, the true point is not - against Tertullian - how to resolve the ridicolous particular problem of the Sadducees, not even how it will be resolved particularly in the future.

The true point is to raise the difference between the grotesque situation of this world and the total ataraxy of the other world. The future world is better because there is no flesh and blood.

I agree with much what you wrote. But I have some doubts that Vinzent chose a good example.The main problem may be that the pericope is designed not only as a discussion about a grotesque “logical” problem, but also about scriptures. The Sadducees’ argument from scripture is: The legalization of Levirate marriage is evidence that Moses did not believe in resurrection. Therefore Mark’s Jesus answered: “you do not know a) the Scriptures or b) the power of God” - and used an argument from higher authority (God spoke to Moses). It’s clear that Marcion can’t keep up with the rest.

Thanks. I should infer that also according your view the Mark's Jesus answers by coming down in the details of scriptures, in short: playing with the same ''game rules'' already recognized by the Sadducees.

I wonder to what extent, by this implicit (half-)recognition of those rules, Jesus is making not more grotesque and ridiculous the dilemma posed by the Sadducees (apparently against the ''fact'' - true, at least in my eyes - that that dilemma had to be grotesque and ridiculous in the intentions of the author).

Giuseppe wrote:Thanks. I should infer that also according your view the Mark's Jesus answers by coming down in the details of scriptures, in short: playing with the same ''game rules'' already recognized by the Sadducees.

I wonder to what extent, by this implicit (half-)recognition of those rules, Jesus is making not more grotesque and ridiculous the dilemma posed by the Sadducees (apparently against the ''fact'' - true, at least in my eyes - that that dilemma had to be grotesque and ridiculous in the intentions of the author).

I accept your argument. I question only the value of the argument. I think at best it is in such a pericope not an argument in favor of Marcionite priority, but an argument against Marcionite non-priority, because at first glance Marcion seems to be at a disadvantage (because a bit out of context). Prof. Vinzent’s case goes mainly in the same direction.

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I think there are a few interesting points in this pericope with regard to the synoptic problem. First an overview.

Ben C. Smith wrote:Luke 20.27-47, marriage in the resurrection ...

27 Προσελθόντες δέ τινες τῶν Σαδδουκαίων, οἱ ἀντιλέγοντες ἀνάστασιν μὴ εἶναι, ἐπηρώτησαν αὐτὸν 28 λέγοντες Διδάσκαλε, Μωϋσῆς ἔγραψεν ἡμῖν, ἐάν τινος ἀδελφὸς ἀποθάνῃ ἔχων γυναῖκα, καὶ οὗτος ἄτεκνος ᾖ, ἵνα λάβῃ ὁ ἀδελφὸς αὐτοῦ τὴν γυναῖκα καὶ ἐξαναστήσῃ σπέρμα τῷ ἀδελφῷ αὐτοῦ. 29 ἑπτὰ οὖν ἀδελφοὶ ἦσαν• καὶ ὁ πρῶτος λαβὼν γυναῖκα ἀπέθανεν ἄτεκνος• 30 καὶ ὁ δεύτερος 31 καὶ ὁ τρίτος ἔλαβεν αὐτήν, ὡσαύτως δὲ καὶ οἱ ἑπτὰ οὐ κατέλιπον τέκνα καὶ ἀπέθανον. 32 ὕστερον καὶ ἡ γυνὴ ἀπέθανεν. 33 ἡ γυνὴ οὖν ἐν τῇ ἀναστάσει τίνος αὐτῶν γίνεται γυνή; οἱ γὰρ ἑπτὰ ἔσχον αὐτὴν γυναῖκα. 34 καὶ ἀποκριθείς εἶπεν αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς Οἱ υἱοὶ τοῦ αἰῶνος τούτου γαμοῦσιν καὶ γαμίσκονται, 35 οἱ δὲ καταξιωθέντες [Marcion: οὓς δέ κατηξίωσεν ὁ θεὸς] τοῦ αἰῶνος ἐκείνου τυχεῖν, τῆς κληρονομίας, καὶ τῆς ἀναστάσεως τῆς ἐκ νεκρῶν οὔτε γαμοῦσιν οὔτε γαμίζονται• 36 οὐδὲ γὰρ ἀποθανεῖν ἔτι δύνανται [Marcion: μέλλουσιν], ἰσάγγελοι γάρ εἰσιν, καὶ υἱοί εἰσιν Θεοῦ τῆς ἀναστάσεως υἱοὶ ὄντες. 37 ὅτι δὲ ἐγείρονται οἱ νεκροὶ, καὶ Μωϋσῆς ἐμήνυσεν ἐπὶ τῆς Βάτου, ὡς λέγει Κύριον τὸν Θεὸν Ἀβραὰμ καὶ Θεὸν Ἰσαὰκ καὶ Θεὸν Ἰακώβ• 38 Θεὸς δὲ οὐκ ἔστιν νεκρῶν ἀλλὰ ζώντων• πάντες γὰρ αὐτῷ ζῶσιν. 39 ἀποκριθέντες δέ τινες τῶν γραμματέων εἶπαν Διδάσκαλε, καλῶς εἶπας. 40 οὐκέτι γὰρ ἐτόλμων ἐπερωτᾶν αὐτὸν οὐδέν.

27 Some of the Sadducees came to him, those who deny that there is a resurrection. 28 They asked him, “Teacher, Moses wrote to us that if a man’s brother dies having a wife, and he is childless, his brother should take the wife and raise up children for his brother. 29 There were therefore seven brothers. The first took a wife, and died childless. 30 The second took her as wife, and he died childless. 31 The third took her, and likewise the seven all left no children, and died. 32 Afterward the woman also died. 33 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them will she be? For the seven had her as a wife.” 34 Jesus answered and said to them, “The children of this age marry, and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy [Marcion: whom God considered worthy] to attain to [Marcion: of] that age, the inheritance, and the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage. 36 For they can’t [Marcion: won't] die any more, for they are like the angels, and are children of God, being children of the resurrection. 37 But that the dead are raised, even Moses showed at the bush, when he called the Lord ‘The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 Now he is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for all are alive to him.” 39 Some of the scribes answered [Marcion: said], “Teacher, you speak well.” 40 They didn’t dare to ask him any more questions.

1 Corinthians 15	Mark 12	Matthew 22	Luke 20	Marcion
12 Now if Christ is preached, that he has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?	18 There came to him Sadducees, who say that there is no resurrection.	23 On that day Sadducees came to him, the ones saying that there is no resurrection.	27 Some of the Sadducees came to him, those who deny that there is a resurrection.	27 Some of the Sadducees came to him, those who deny that there is a resurrection.
X	They asked him, saying, 19 "Teacher, Moses wrote to us, 'If a man's brother dies, and leaves a wife behind him, and leaves no children, that his brother should take the wife, and raise up offspring for his brother.'	And they asked him, 24 saying, "Teacher, Moses said, 'If a man dies, having no children, his brother is to marry his wife, and raise up offspring for his brother.'	28 They asked him, "Teacher, Moses wrote to us that if a man's brother dies having a wife, and he is childless, his brother should take the wife, and raise up children for his brother.	28 They asked him, “Teacher, Moses wrote to us that if a man’s brother dies having a wife, and he is childless, his brother should take the wife and raise up children for his brother.
X	20 There were seven brothers. The first took a wife, and dying left no offspring. 21 The second took her, and died, leaving no children behind him. The third likewise; 22 and the seven left no children. Last of all the woman also died.	25 Now there were with us seven brothers. The first married and died, and having no offspring, left his wife to his brother. 26 In like manner the second also, and the third, to the seventh. 27 After them all, the woman died.	29 There were therefore seven brothers. The first took a wife, and died childless. 30 The second and 31 the third took her, and likewise the seven all left no children, and died. 32 Afterward the woman also died.	29 There were therefore seven brothers. The first took a wife, and died childless. 30 The second took her as wife, and he died childless. 31 The third took her, and likewise the seven all left no children, and died. 32 Afterward the woman also died.
35 But someone will say, "How are the dead raised?" and, "With what kind of body do they come?"	23 In the resurrection, when they rise, whose wife will she be of them? For the seven had her as a wife."	28 In the resurrection therefore, whose wife will she be of the seven? For they all had her."	33 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them will she be? For the seven had her as a wife."	33 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them will she be? For the seven had her as a wife.”
36 You foolish one, ...	24 Jesus said to them, "Is not this because you are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God?	29 But Jesus answered them, "You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God.	X	X
37 That which you sow, you do not sow the body that will be, but a bare grain, maybe of wheat, or of some other kind. 38 But God gives it a body even as it pleased him, and to each seed a body of its own. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh, .... 40 There are also celestial bodies, and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial differs from that of the terrestrial. 50 Now I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God; neither does corruption inherit incorruption.	25 For when they will rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.	30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are like the angels in heaven.	34 Jesus said to them, "The sons of this age marry, and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage. 36 For they cannot die any more, for they are like the angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.	34 Jesus answered and said to them, “The children of this age marry, and are given in marriage. 35 But those whom God considered worthy to attain of that age, the inheritance, and the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage. 36 For they won't die any more, for they are like the angels, and are children of God, being children of the resurrection.
X	26 But about the dead, that they are raised; have you not read in the book of Moses, about the Bush, how God spoke to him, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.	31 But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read that which was spoken to you by God, saying, 32 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?' God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."	37 But that the dead are raised, even Moses showed at the bush, when he called the Lord 'The God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.' 38 Now he is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for all are alive to him."	X
X	You are therefore badly mistaken."	X	X	X
X	X	33 When the crowds heard it, they were astonished at his teaching.	X	X
X	X	X	39 Some of the scribes answered, "Teacher, you speak well." 40 They did not dare to ask him any more questions.	39 Some of the scribes said, “Teacher, you speak well.” 40 They didn’t dare to ask him any more questions.

Our own Tenorikuma's Luke’s Surprising and Oft-Ignored Views on Marriage and Resurrection could be more relevant than Prof. Vinzent's claim.

more to come ...

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I think one of the interesting points is that Mark and probably Marcion have more or less the same story about the question of the Sadducees, but a completely different story about Jesus' answer.

Mark 12	Marcion
18 There came to him Sadducees, who say that there is no resurrection.	27 Some of the Sadducees came to him, those who deny that there is a resurrection.
They asked him, saying, 19 "Teacher, Moses wrote to us, 'If a man's brother dies, and leaves a wife behind him, and leaves no children, that his brother should take the wife, and raise up offspring for his brother.'	28 They asked him, “Teacher, Moses wrote to us that if a man’s brother dies having a wife, and he is childless, his brother should take the wife and raise up children for his brother.
20 There were seven brothers. The first took a wife, and dying left no offspring. 21 The second took her, and died, leaving no children behind him. The third likewise; 22 and the seven left no children. Last of all the woman also died.	29 There were therefore seven brothers. The first took a wife, and died childless. 30 The second took her as wife, and he died childless. 31 The third took her, and likewise the seven all left no children, and died. 32 Afterward the woman also died.
23 In the resurrection, when they rise, whose wife will she be of them? For the seven had her as a wife."	33 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them will she be? For the seven had her as a wife.”

Mark 12	Marcion	Commentary
24 Jesus said to them, "Is not this because you are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God?	X	X
25 For when they will rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.	34 Jesus answered and said to them, “The children of this age marry, and are given in marriage. 35 But those whom God considered worthy to attain of that age, the inheritance, and the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage. 36 For they won't die any more, for they are like the angels, and are children of God, being children of the resurrection.	Mark's point: marriage in heaven Marcion's point: marriage on earth
26 But about the dead, that they are raised; have you not read in the book of Moses, about the Bush, how God spoke to him, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.	X	X
You are therefore badly mistaken."	X	X
X	39 Some of the scribes said, “Teacher, you speak well.” 40 They didn’t dare to ask him any more questions.	X

I don't see the difference.