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Re: 60 Scholars On Messianic Expectation At The Turn Of The
Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 7:39 pm
by iskander
neilgodfrey wrote:Secret Alias wrote:
OK but you accept that the Pentateuch and therefore 'Israelite religion' was centered around the revealing of a leader who was to come and act in the capacity or role of Moses in the Biblical narrative. You accept that this was a universal assumption across all 'Israelite cultures' (Samaritan, Jewish etc).
No.
So you are not a Jewish believer. and so you are not a Christian believer either.
Re: 60 Scholars On Messianic Expectation At The Turn Of The
Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 7:42 pm
by iskander
neilgodfrey wrote:iskander wrote:The pre-existent messiah born of a woman ...
Micah 5
1.And you, Bethlehem Ephrathah-you should have been the lowest of the clans of Judah-from you [he] shall emerge for Me, to be a ruler over Israel; and his origin is from of old, from days of yore
Rashi
from you shall emerge for Me: the Messiah, son of David, and so Scripture says (Ps. 118:22): “The stone the builders had rejected became a cornerstone.”
and his origin is from of old: “Before the sun his name is Yinnon” (Ps. 72:17
2.Therefore, He shall deliver them until the time a woman in confinement gives birth. And the rest of his brothers shall return upon the children of Israel
Rashi
Therefore, He shall deliver them until the time a woman in confinement gives birth: He shall deliver them into the hands of their enemies until the coming of the time that Zion has felt the pangs of labor and borne her children; Zion, which is now seized by the pangs of labor, is now called a woman in confinement. [I.e., now the labor pains will cease and the redempyion will come about.] But our Sages state that from here we deduce that the son of David will not come until the wicked kingdom spreads over the entire world for nine months (Yoma 10b, Sanh. 98b). But, according to its simple meaning, this is the structure as I explained.
...
http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo ... rashi=true
Second Temple Jews did not follow the Rashi commentary.
They were his teachers,
"Meanwhile, prophecy was developing in Israel, and in the kingdoms of Ephraim and Judah arose prophets who broadened and deepened the conceptions of the tribes of Israel. In this process the Messianic expectation received an almost entirely new form.
In fact, the Messianic expectation is the positive element in the message of the prophets"
see attachment
THE MESSIANIC IDEA IN ISRAEL
From Its Beginning to the Completion of the Mishnah
by JOSEPH KLAUSNER, PM).
pg 41
Re: 60 Scholars On Messianic Expectation At The Turn Of The
Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 7:48 pm
by neilgodfrey
iskander wrote:neilgodfrey wrote:Secret Alias wrote:
OK but you accept that the Pentateuch and therefore 'Israelite religion' was centered around the revealing of a leader who was to come and act in the capacity or role of Moses in the Biblical narrative. You accept that this was a universal assumption across all 'Israelite cultures' (Samaritan, Jewish etc).
No.
So you are not a Jewish believer. and so you are not a Christian believer either.
Good God no! I don't think many "believers" are really eligible to discuss biblical criticism and history.
Re: 60 Scholars On Messianic Expectation At The Turn Of The
Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 7:50 pm
by neilgodfrey
neilgodfrey wrote:Secret Alias wrote:
OK but you accept that the Pentateuch and therefore 'Israelite religion' was centered around the revealing of a leader who was to come and act in the capacity or role of Moses in the Biblical narrative. You accept that this was a universal assumption across all 'Israelite cultures' (Samaritan, Jewish etc).
No.
For example, I think the author/s of Isaiah are part and parcel of what might loosely be called the "Israelite religion" but I don't accept that their religion was "centred around the revealing of a leader" of any kind.
Re: 60 Scholars On Messianic Expectation At The Turn Of The
Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 7:54 pm
by iskander
neilgodfrey wrote:...
No. I don't think many "believers" are really eligible to discuss biblical criticism and history.
It is what your "no" means. It means only that
Re: 60 Scholars On Messianic Expectation At The Turn Of The
Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 8:03 pm
by iskander
neilgodfrey wrote:neilgodfrey wrote:Secret Alias wrote:
OK but you accept that the Pentateuch and therefore 'Israelite religion' was centered around the revealing of a leader who was to come and act in the capacity or role of Moses in the Biblical narrative. You accept that this was a universal assumption across all 'Israelite cultures' (Samaritan, Jewish etc).
No.
For example, I think the author/s of Isaiah are part and parcel of what might loosely be called the "Israelite religion" but I don't accept that their religion was "centred around the revealing of a leader" of any kind.
You think,
The Jewish study bible coment on micah 5 see attachment
Re: 60 Scholars On Messianic Expectation At The Turn Of The
Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 8:29 pm
by neilgodfrey
iskander wrote:
You think,
The Jewish study bible coment on micah 5 see attachment
I'm not the least interested in what your rashki or rabbinic teachers have to say about Micah 5 if I am studying what it meant to various people in the Second Temple era. Using the opinions of teachers 600 to 1000 years removed from a set period to reconstruct the views held during that set period violates the most fundamental principles of historical inquiry -- and logic.
Re: 60 Scholars On Messianic Expectation At The Turn Of The
Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 8:36 pm
by neilgodfrey
neilgodfrey wrote:iskander wrote:
You think,
The Jewish study bible coment on micah 5 see attachment
I'm not the least interested in what your rashki or rabbinic teachers have to say about Micah 5 if I am studying what it meant to various people in the Second Temple era. Using the opinions of teachers 600 to 1000 years removed from a set period to reconstruct the views held during that set period violates the most fundamental principles of historical inquiry -- and logic.
I should add....
It might in fact be true that some rabbinic interpretation does coincide with one of the interpretations, perhaps even the interpretation of the author, of a Second Temple era document. But we will only know that is true if we first establish the understanding of that document among Second Temple era groups -- independently of the rabbinic views.
Besides, one of the first things we learn in studying the ancient texts that there was a wide array of different views about messiahs and prophets and sacrifices and gentiles and just about any other doctrinal question you can think of.
Re: 60 Scholars On Messianic Expectation At The Turn Of The
Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 9:11 pm
by Secret Alias
For example, I think the author/s of Isaiah are part and parcel of what might loosely be called the "Israelite religion" but I don't accept that their religion was "centred around the revealing of a leader" of any kind.
Ummm. I thought when I referenced 'Samaritans' and 'Jews' we were talking about the Second Temple period. So you think there was an Israelite community AT THAT TIME somewhere in the world which didn't use the Pentateuch and only used Isaiah. This is silly. Argument is over. Time to move on. The specific term 'messiah' is not universal but the Deut 18:15 expectation AND OTHERS from the Torah are. Next topic.
Re: 60 Scholars On Messianic Expectation At The Turn Of The
Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 9:24 pm
by neilgodfrey
Secret Alias wrote:So you think there was an Israelite community AT THAT TIME somewhere in the world which didn't use the Pentateuch and only used Isaiah.
Of course not. I don't know why you think in such black and white terms, and assume so much that is nonsense. I really don't think anything I have said is the least controversial and it is beyond me how you can interpret my words in such silly ways.