Did Josephus mention John the Baptist?

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neilgodfrey
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Re: Did Josephus mention John the Baptist?

Post by neilgodfrey »

Giuseppe wrote: Nir's conclusion:
Josephus, as is well known, remained a faithful Jew. He was neither initiated into one of the Jewish-Christian sects, nor did he convert to Christianity. Thus, the inevitable conclusion is that the description of John’s baptism, as provided in the passage under review, was not written by Josephus, but was rather interpolated or adapted by a Christian or Jewish-Christian hand.
What irony to see that it is all the contrary! The real forger was soundly anti-Jewish!
The blog tries to present a range of views. Often its author is not committed to any of them in particular but is still thinking through and exploring the issues for himself.

I have tended to think the Mandeans grew out of a JB sect that was as much or as little "Jewish" as the Christian one. Jewishness was an ambiguous term that had many different levels of meaning in factional debates. Groups who may have been culturally or "racially" "Jewish" or "Judean" would be quite capable of denying "Jewishness" to their fellow "Jewish" rivals. Recall Revelation's "who say they are Jews but are not". "Jew", like "Israel" over different eras had many different meanings and associations. It could be bandied about as an ideological term, for or against.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Did Josephus mention John the Baptist?

Post by Giuseppe »

I learn that this author, Nicholas P L Allen, has written a paper
Allen N.P.L. “Josephus, Origen and John the Baptist: Exposing a Christian Apologist’s Deceit.”
Triennial congress of the International Organisation for the Study of the Old Testament.
US, Stellenbosch, South Africa (4 - 9 September)
https://nwu.academia.edu/NicholasPeterL ... culumVitae

...where probably he shows the entire case for the Baptist passage interpolated entirely by Origen - during his polemic against Celsus -, as already described in his thesis.

From the same link, I see that this author has already written another article:
Allen, N.P.L. “Identifying Early Christian Forgery in Suetonius' De Vita Caesarum.”
Late Antiquity Studies: Textual and Interpretative Problems
(Interdisciplinary Day Conference), School of Ancient Languages and Text Studies, NWU, Potchefstroom, South Africa (17 April)
Is he talking about the suetonian ''impulsore Chresto'' as early Christian forgery?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Did Josephus mention John the Baptist?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Giuseppe wrote:I am only surprised about the addition of JtB in the set of the men not mentioned by Josephus "beyond any reasonable doubt".
Peter Kirby has a very nice piece on the John the Baptist pericope in Josephus: http://peterkirby.com/john-the-baptist-authentic.html. He argues in favor of the passage being original. YMMV.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Did Josephus mention John the Baptist?

Post by Giuseppe »

Peter writes:
This is because Origen already attests to the passage on John as being present in Antiquities book 18, in order to substantiate the existence of John the Baptist (which is in any case already conceded by “the Jew” of Celsus’ dialogues).
Clearly, I have thought also the same thing, that the mention by Origen should prove AT LEAST the presence of the Baptist passage in the original Antiquities (and adding weight to the Argument from Silence against the Testimonium Flavianum). But the point made by Allen is that Origen was precisely the forger! This possibility is totally escaped to the attention of Peter (and of all us with him, obviously).

The Allen's argument is that Origen interpolated the Baptist passage in Josephus, so that he could use this ''Josephus'' against Celsus, so aggressive against the ''magician'' Jesus and his Jewish provenance.

The same abstract possibility of a Jewish-Christian (or of a follower of a hypothetical Batpist cult) as the forger is vanishing, in comparison to Origen. Because Origen was neither a Jewish-Christian nor a Baptist cultist. He was the first to mention the Josephian John because he interpolated the Josephian John.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Did Josephus mention John the Baptist?

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This is the Baptist passage:
Antiquities 18.116-119
But to some of the Jews the destruction ofHerod’s defeat is attributed to his murder of John the Baptist. Herod’s army seemed to be divine vengeance, and certainly a just vengeance, for his treatment of John, surnamed the Baptist. For Herod had put him to death, though he was a good man and had exhorted the Jews to lead righteous lives, to practise justice towards their fellows and piety towards God, and so doing to join in baptism. In his view this was a necessary preliminary if baptism was to be acceptable to God. They must not employ it to gain pardon for whatever sins they committed, but as a consecration of the body implying that the soul was already thoroughly cleansed by right behaviour. When others too joined the crowds about him, because they were aroused to the highest degree by his sermons, Herod became alarmed. Eloquence that had so great an effect on mankind might lead to some form of sedition,f for it looked as if they would be guided by John in everything that they did. Herod decided therefore that it would be much better to strike first and be rid of him before his work led to an uprising, than to wait for an upheaval, get involved in a difficult situation and see his mistake. Though John, because of Herod’s suspicions, was brought in chains to Machaerus, the stronghold that we have previously mentioned, and there put to death, yet the verdict of the Jews was that the destruction visited upon Herod’s army was a vindication of John, since God saw fit to inflict such a blow on Herod.
The more strong argument pro authenticity is the causal link :

moral purification --> baptism ---> mere purification of the body.

that usually is said to be apparently different (and therefore not of Christian origin) from the causal link according to Christian baptism:

immorality and physical impurity --> baptism ---> moral and physical purification

But note that, against Celsus, Origen had need of describing the Christian baptism as both a rational and magical act of conversion.
His argument is the following:

1) who is baptized shows, just a minute later, great example of virtue and this is a magical fact. Believe it or die.

2) if 1 is true, then it is rational to receive the baptism.

3) if it is rational to receive the baptism, then even before the baptism, who is going to receive the baptism is already a rational and virtuous and good person.

4) Therefore the example of John the Baptist, as described in Josephus, confirms the points 1, 2 and 3 above.

I would like to say to Celsus, who represents the Jew as accepting somehow John as a Baptist, who baptized Jesus, that the existence of John the Baptist, baptizing for the remission of sins, is related by one who lived no great length of time after John and Jesus. For in the 18th book of his Antiquities of the Jews, Josephus bears witness to John as having been a Baptist, and as promising purification to those who underwent the rite.

(Against Celsus, 1.47)



In the words of NPL Allen:
In one sense, Josephus merely serves as an independent witness to back up his assertions on a very superficial level. However, if the reader bothers to actually turn to Josephus’ BP (i.e. AJ, XVIII, 5, 2 / 116 -119), he/she will most “conveniently” discover a lengthy, reiteration of those very issues that disprove some of Celsus’ claims.
(p. 359, my bold)
...
Then, he has Josephus confirm (on his behalf) the following details:
1. John the Baptist may have been a Jew, but he was not only a proven “good man”, he also actively worked towards making other Jews “exercise virtue” and practice righteous behaviour and “piety towards God”;
2. John the Baptist did not practice, what some may imagine was some form of traditional Jewish purification ritual; he practiced essentially, what was for Origen, a Christian baptism which ensured that the convertee subsequently engaged in a divinely directed, behavioural change, that embodied piety, righteousness and Godly virtues. Specifically, he enacted a religious rite which did two interdependent actions:
• the remission of (some) sins; and
• the purification of the body (supposing that the soul was purified beforehand by righteousness).
The latter two points are nothing more than embellishments of the very concepts that Origen had been trying to sell to his reader in his Cels. and particularly Cels I, 47.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Did Josephus mention John the Baptist?

Post by Giuseppe »

So Peter Kirby:
It seems highly unlikely that any Christian, whether Jewish Christian or Gentile Christian (it does not matter for this argument), would have interpolated a lengthy passage on John into Josephus, while leaving the text bereft of any passage regarding the much more important figure in Christian belief, i.e., Jesus.
(my bold)
But according to Allen Origen interpolated also the ''called Christ'' in the James passage! Therefore it is not true that the forger of the Baptist passage did leave ''the text bereft of any passage regarding the much more important figure in Christian belief, i.e., Jesus''.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Did Josephus mention John the Baptist?

Post by Giuseppe »

I think that

1) the fact that the same forger, Origen, inserted the entire Baptist passage and the construct ''called Christ'' in the James passage

plus

2) the fact that the Baptist passage is meant to exalt the Baptist as a Jew, the Baptism as a rational act (who is going to receive it is already purified), and the Baptism as a magical act (who is going to receive it will receive further purification of the body) is all functional to Origen's apology against a Celsus despising the Jews, the Baptist (as Jew) and the Gospel baptism episode (as fiction).

overcome alone all the other arguments pro authenticity.

Therefore: John the Baptist never existed (just as Thomas, Judas, Simon, Zebedee, etc).
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Did Josephus mention John the Baptist?

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Giuseppe wrote:
I learn that this author, Nicholas P L Allen, has written a paper
Allen N.P.L. “Josephus, Origen and John the Baptist: Exposing a Christian Apologist’s Deceit.”
Triennial congress of the International Organisation for the Study of the Old Testament.
US, Stellenbosch, South Africa (4 - 9 September)
https://nwu.academia.edu/NicholasPeterL ... culumVitae
That link is to Allen's CV.

This link is to his publications - https://nwu.academia.edu/NicholasPeterLeghAllen


But what an interesting CV. It includes: -
  • 2014: Allen N.P.L. “A Critical Re-Appraisal of Thiering’s ‘Pesher Technique’ Thesis.” Journal of Early Christian History, Vol IV, No. 2, Pretoria: UNISA Press: 4 – 30.

    2015: Awarded the degree of Philosophiae Doctor (Ph.D.) (Greek) from the North-West University.
    • Thesis: Clarifying the Scope of Pre-5th Century C.E. Christian Interpolation in Josephus’ Ἰουδαϊκὴ Ἀρχαιολογία [Antiquitates Judaicae] (c. 94 C.E.).
    2016 Allen N.P.L. “Josephus and the Pharisees.” Construction, Coherence and Connotation in Septuagint, Apocryphal and Cognate Literature.
    • Editors: Nicholas P.L. Allen and Pierre J. Jordaan. Deuterocanonical and Cognate Literature Studies, 34. Berlin: Walter de Gruyter GmbH.
    2016: Allen N.P.L. “Josephus: Jesus and James.” Journal of Early Christian History, Vol VI, No. 1, Pretoria: UNISA. Publication pending.

    2016: Allen N.P.L. “Was There Really a Solar Eclipse in Jerusalem c. 33 C.E?” History of Religions, Chicago: University of Chicago Press. Under review.

    2016: Allen N.P.L. “Christian Misappropriation in the Jewish Antiquities: Josephus Redeemed.” Journal of Early Christian Studies, Baltimore, Md: John Hopkins Univ Press. Under review

    2016: Currently registering with the University of Amsterdam for the degree of Philosophiae Doctor (Ph.D.) (Humanities).
    • Thesis: The Interconnections between Luke-Acts and Josephus Reconsidered.
Giuseppe wrote:
...probably he shows the entire case for the Baptist passage interpolated entirely by Origen - during his polemic against Celsus -, as already described in his thesis.

From the same link, I see that this author has already written another article:
Allen, N.P.L. “Identifying Early Christian Forgery in Suetonius' De Vita Caesarum.”
Late Antiquity Studies: Textual and Interpretative Problems
(Interdisciplinary Day Conference), School of Ancient Languages and Text Studies, NWU, Potchefstroom, South Africa (17 April)
  • Is he talking about the suetonian ''impulsore Chresto'' as early Christian forgery?
  • Interesting!
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Re: Did Josephus mention John the Baptist?

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Giuseppe wrote:
Antiquities 18.116-119
But to some of the Jews the destruction ofHerod’s defeat is attributed to his murder of John the Baptist. Herod’s army seemed to be divine vengeance, and certainly a just vengeance, for his treatment of John, surnamed the Baptist. For Herod had put him to death, though he was a good man and had exhorted the Jews to lead righteous lives, to practise justice towards their fellows and piety towards God, and so doing to join in baptism. In his view this was a necessary preliminary if baptism was to be acceptable to God. They must not employ it to gain pardon for whatever sins they committed, but as a consecration of the body implying that the soul was already thoroughly cleansed by right behaviour. When others too joined the crowds about him, because they were aroused to the highest degree by his sermons, Herod became alarmed. Eloquence that had so great an effect on mankind might lead to some form of sedition,f for it looked as if they would be guided by John in everything that they did. Herod decided therefore that it would be much better to strike first and be rid of him before his work led to an uprising, than to wait for an upheaval, get involved in a difficult situation and see his mistake. Though John, because of Herod’s suspicions, was brought in chains to Machaerus, the stronghold that we have previously mentioned, and there put to death, yet the verdict of the Jews was that the destruction visited upon Herod’s army was a vindication of John, since God saw fit to inflict such a blow on Herod.
The more strong argument pro authenticity is the causal link :

moral purification --> baptism ---> mere purification of the body.

that usually is said to be apparently different (and therefore not of Christian origin) from the causal link according to Christian baptism:
There are two further points. The Greek is here "βαπτισμῷ συνιέναι" perhaps "in baptism/immersion coming together/being together"

It seems that according to Josephus the ritual didn't need a baptizer. Furthermore, if it was "only" a purification of the body then it must repeated.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Did Josephus mention John the Baptist?

Post by Giuseppe »

Peter has already neutralized that argument (disagreeing between the two baptisms of Josephus and of the Christian tradition) as potential support for authenticity:

Clare Rothschild argues accordingly (“Echo of a Whisper,” in Ablution, Initiation, and Baptism, p. 268):

Most scholars think that Christian redaction cannot account for the claim in A.J. because it contradicts the celebrated Markan proclamation – contradicting Christian claims being equated with authenticity. It is possible, however, that in not just removing but denying ‘baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins’ (Mark 1:4 par.) a Christian editor sought to settle once and for all the question that surfaces in Matthew. One may, therefore, view this line as a Christian contradiction of Mark 1:4 par., as a Christian insertion favoring Matt 3:14-15 over Mark 1:4 par.
Therefore that line of argument (excessive characterizing of the baptism in the BP) is not evidence of authenticity.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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