Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

Michael BG wrote:You have asserted that synagogues were not places where Jews met to read the Torah and perhaps other Jewish writings and to pray..

The actual debated context was that you stated Christians and Jews worshipped together in synagogues

And you have not provided any sources substantiating your opinion.

Then when we get to synagogue, I already explained it to you that it was not like a temple or church, they were simply community centers, SO YOU DID NOT get a bunch of people in a building worshipping together.

Your taking me out of context, when I say a bunch of people in a building, MEANT Christians and Jews together.

Synagogues by some claim Jews did not worship but discussed Jewish Law.

In spite of the recited prayers and scheduled readings, it was clear that the essential aim of the synagogue was not prayer, but instruction in the Law for all classes of the people. The Hellenistic Jew, Philo of Alexandria (c. 20 B.C. to 50 A.D.) calls the synagogues “houses of instruction, where the philosophy of the fathers and all manner of virtues were taught.” (Cp, ii, 17. Cp. Acts 13:15; Mark 1:21; 6:2; Luke 4:15, 31; 6:6; 13:10; John 6:59; 18:20).

So I ask you which Christians and what sources say all Christians worshipped in Synagogues, since we know Paul early on had turned this into a gentile based assembly of people perverting Jewish law??

Michael BG wrote:You have provided no evidence.

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I have you refuse it.

Only Koine text exist from the Diaspora, that is factual evidence.

It seems that I missed some postings between those of Outhouse that I replied to and my response. I expect it was because I went out while composing my response.

outhouse wrote:

robert j wrote:Responding to someone not specified in his post, outhouse wrote ---

outhouse wrote: But where YOU really fail is not understanding the written text. Take Paul, Paul tells you he goes to synagogues and he gest his ass kicked ....

Where did Paul write that?

Jews were expelled from Rome because of disturbances around AD 49 by the edict of Claudius.[20] Fitzmyer claims that both Jews and Jewish Christians were expelled as a result of their infighting

Acts is the main source and regardless of historicity, it reflects the division of Hellenistic Jews and Christians

“Fitzmyer claims” is clearly an opinion and not a fact!

outhouse wrote:

Keck thinks Gentile Christians may have developed a dislike of or looked down on Jews (see also Antisemitism and Responsibility for the death of Jesus), because they theologically rationalized that Jews were no longer God's people.[23

I do appreciate you are making an effort to provide quotations. However just quoting an author is not sufficient you need to provide the title of the article or book and if possible a link to it. (I understand it is also common practice to quote the page number as well).

outhouse wrote:

In presenting Jesus as the Messiah and Christianity as superseding Judaism, Paul and the authors of the Gospels and Acts, in particular, indict the Jewish people for the death of Jesus and spread antipathy of Jews and Judaism as part of a program to achieve Christian ascendancy.

Who are you quoting?

Please can you give the references to where Paul says that the Jews crucified Jesus? (I can only recall 1 Thess.2:14-15 which many scholars see as a post 70 CE interpolation e.g. Birger A Pearson https://www.umass.edu/wsp/conferences/w ... arson).pdf).

It seems you are taking the deteriorating relationship between Christians and Jews post 70 CE and reading it back into the period after the resurrection appearances and before 70 CE.

outhouse wrote: I think I can find Pauline text hat would justify my statement, BUT if it makes you happy I should have stated "Pauline traditions said so" instead of "Paul tells us" just to avoid conflict.

I suppose half a retraction is all anyone can expect from you, but at least it is a start.

outhouse wrote:
The actual debated context was that you stated Christians and Jews worshipped together in synagogues

My original post which you disagreed with was only:

Christians met to worship and pray with Jews until the end of the first century

outhouse wrote: And you have not provided any sources substantiating your opinion.

It is a generally held one and that is all you supplied earlier.

Matthew’s community is generally accepted to be very Jewish.

outhouse wrote: we know Paul early on had turned this into a gentile based assembly of people perverting Jewish law??

We do not know this. The evidence seems to be that Paul wanted Christians not to follow the Law, but they kept doing so.

We know from Galatians (2:11-13) that there is something called the “circumcision party”, who are Jewish Christians like Peter, James and Barnabas. Paul is fighting a requirement to live like Jews at Antioch. This means that members of the “circumcision party” lived as Jews along-side Jews who were not Christians. It is clear from Galatians that they (the Galatian Christians) were living according to the Law as Jews. In 1 Corinthians (8:7ff) there are still some Christians at Corinth who will not eat food offered to idols.

outhouse wrote:In spite of the recited prayers and scheduled readings, it was clear that the essential aim of the synagogue was not prayer, but instruction in the Law for all classes of the people. The Hellenistic Jew, Philo of Alexandria (c. 20 B.C. to 50 A.D.) calls the synagogues “houses of instruction, where the philosophy of the fathers and all manner of virtues were taught.” (Cp, ii, 17. Cp. Acts 13:15; Mark 1:21; 6:2; Luke 4:15, 31; 6:6; 13:10; John 6:59; 18:20).

I am not familiar with Philo references. I have no idea what Cp. is. Please give the links to the parts of Philo you are referring to?

You arrear to be accepting that some praying went on at synagogues. I am glad you now accept this. It is inconceivable that Jews would meet to discuss their religious texts without some prayers of some sort. Most of the references you give are on attending synagogues on Sabbaths. Again it is inconceivable that Jews would meet on a Sabbath and not pray.

You do not appear to have looked at the references I gave for Jews praying together at particular places which are not the Jerusalem Temple.

Hopefully you have accepted that Jews did do some praying in synagogues. Hopefully with the evidence I have provided you can accept that some Christians were circumcised Jews following Jewish Law.

It is therefore reasonable that some early Christians would pray with non-Christian Jews at the local synagogue especially on the Sabbath when as you have conceded these Christians attended a synagogue.

Michael BG wrote: Matthew’s community is generally accepted to be very Jewish.
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Really? only if you pervert the definition of the word Jew like the Hellenist and gentile authors of Matthew.

Matthew's Gospel has given readers the impression his hostility to Jews increases as his narrative progresses, until it culminates in chapter 23

Certain passages which speak of the destruction of Jerusalem have elements that are interpreted as indications of Matthew's anti-Judaic attitudes.

The OT allusions appear to suggest that the author thought God would call to account Israel's leaders for maltreating Christ, and that the covenant will pass to the Gentiles who follow Christ

"His [Jesus's] blood be on us and on our children!" (Matthew 27:25). This so-called "blood guilt" text has been interpreted to mean that all Jews, of Jesus' time and forever afterward, accept responsibility for the death of Jesus.

Michael BG wrote: We know from Galatians (2:11-13) that there is something called the “circumcision party”, who are Jewish Christians like Peter, James and Barnabas. Paul is fighting a requirement to live like Jews at Antioch. This means that members of the “circumcision party” lived as Jews along-side Jews who were not Christians. It is clear from Galatians that they (the Galatian Christians) were living according to the Law as Jews. In 1 Corinthians (8:7ff) there are still some Christians at Corinth who will not eat food offered to idols.

Yes Paul debated Hellenist in the Diaspora who were also debating how to treat new gentiles in regards to circumcision.

Basically Roman citizens who found value in Jesus theology wanted to hold onto laws tighter, this is common knowledge which does not help your case of the two different sects praying together.

You arrear to be accepting that some praying went on at synagogues

I have already stated you took me out of context, I stated Christians and Jews were not likely to pray together. The sects were different from one another, one perverted laws, the other did NOT, and I have provided links that laws were what was being discussed in synagogues.

I have also shown from acts Paul was beaten and almost killed for going to synagogues.

You also may not understand the wide diversity of first century synagogues based on geographic location alone. BUT please feel free to use some vast minority if you can even do that tp represent the majority.

Michael BG wrote:Hopefully you have accepted that Jews did do some praying in synagogues

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It has never been my debate.

You are being very dishonest, I have already addressed this in full as you were taking my comment out of context.

My context was Christians were not praying with Jews in synagogues, and I have already stated this 5 replies ago. Yet you fail to comprehend

The current academic and scholarly consensus is that Jewish Christians did exist, but why are they saying this is the question.

It is my opinion because of the apologetically held opinion that Jesus followers were out spreading the word in the Diaspora which is a Christian invention that utilized famous names to sell their theology.

From the very beginning in the first years of the movement they were hunted down by Jews, as Paul was hired to do. The SHARP division between the two groups started from the very beginning.

This movement WAS NOT founded on Jesus real followers spreading Jesus theology. It was founded on Diaspora Proselytes who started with mythology and theology that grew at Passover based on the Martyrdom surrounding Jesus death. The theology started and stayed in Hellenism. and because a trouble making Zealot type rebel was their founder these people were perceived as a threat in Israel and the Diaspora where Paul hunted these people down.

CHRISTIANS had to hide in houses from the very beginning. Not make themselves known. They were not accepted by Jews from the very beginning.

outhouse wrote:

Michael BG wrote:You arrear to be accepting that some praying went on at synagogues

I have already stated you took me out of context,

I am glad we have cleared this up now.

outhouse wrote:I stated Christians and Jews were not likely to pray together.

I am glad you seem to have moderated your position.

Michael BG wrote: We know from Galatians (2:11-13) that there is something called the “circumcision party”, who are Jewish Christians like Peter, James and Barnabas. Paul is fighting a requirement to live like Jews at Antioch. This means that members of the “circumcision party” lived as Jews along-side Jews who were not Christians. It is clear from Galatians that they (the Galatian Christians) were living according to the Law as Jews. In 1 Corinthians (8:7ff) there are still some Christians at Corinth who will not eat food offered to idols.

I note you have not provided a coherent argument against the idea that there were circumcised Jews within the Christian community at Antioch and within Galatia and possibly at Corinth. Also we know the names of some of these Christians – Peter, James, John and Barnabas.

outhouse wrote:I have also shown from acts Paul was beaten and almost killed for going to synagogues.

You have NOT done so. You listed one Acts reference - Acts 13:15: which states

After the reading of the law and the prophets, the rulers of the synagogue sent to them, saying, "Brethren, if you have any word of exhortation for the people, say it."

I can’t see this as a referring to Paul being beaten!

At Pisidian Antioch Paul and Barnabas were driven out of the area by women (13:50).

According to the Acts Seminar “the recurring theme of organized Jewish persecution. These characteristics mark the story as Luke’s creation” (p 155).

Do you think that Paul taught in synagogues?

outhouse wrote:My context was Christians were not praying with Jews in synagogues, and I have already stated this 5 replies ago. Yet you fail to comprehend

I comprehended that you have asserted that no Christians prayed with Jews in synagogues. But as usual you provided no evidence. I have provided evidence that circumcised Jews were Christians and therefore it follows that they prayed together. You accepted that Christians did attend synagogues with your long list of references earlier.

outhouse wrote:The current academic and scholarly consensus is that Jewish Christians did exist,

I am glad you have accepted that my position is the consensus one thereby putting the onus on you to provide a coherent case against the consensus.

outhouse wrote:From the very beginning in the first years of the movement they were hunted down by Jews, as Paul was hired to do. The SHARP division between the two groups started from the very beginning.

Paul was not hunted down by Jews. Peter, Apollos and Barnabas were not hunted down by Jews.

Today I was reading “Comparing Paul and Luke on Paul’s conversion” by Thomas E Phillips in Acts and Christian Beginnings where he states that Gal 1:13 should be translated as “how aggressively I harassed” rather than “violently persecuted” (p 115). It could be translated as “I pursued the assembly and harassed it”.

In Acts there is no sharp division, Peter is going to the Temple often.

outhouse wrote:This movement WAS NOT founded on Jesus real followers spreading Jesus theology. It was founded on Diaspora Proselytes who started with mythology and theology that grew at Passover based on the Martyrdom surrounding Jesus death. The theology started and stayed in Hellenism. and because a trouble making Zealot type rebel was their founder these people were perceived as a threat in Israel and the Diaspora where Paul hunted these people down.

Can you make a case that Peter and John were not followers of Jesus during his lifetime. I am really interested in reading it.

Paul and Barnabas were Jews. I think Apollos was a Jew too.

outhouse wrote:CHRISTIANS had to hide in houses from the very beginning. Not make themselves known. They were not accepted by Jews from the very beginning.

I don’t think this is true, but why don’t you try to convince me it is? You know with a coherently argued case.

Michael BG wrote:I am glad you seem to have moderated your position.

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My position is still Christians and Jews did not pray together in synagogues.

Most of this deals with understanding what took place in a first century synagogue, which was different geographically speaking.

I see some Hellenistic Jews that worshipped in a synagogue before converting, but no evidence they continued going to worship there. Nor do I see any evidence of Christians going into synagogues to worship. We only have evidence of Paul proselytizing there and according to Acts almost being murdered for it.

Michael BG wrote:Can you make a case that Peter and John were not followers of Jesus during his lifetime.

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I make a case they were part of Jesus inner circle, and it is my opinion they fled back to Galilee during Jesus arrest, starting the traditions of the real followers turning him in, and denying him 3 times. In my view the inner circle were illiterate peasants who first followed John, then after his murdered hooked up with Jesus.

I do not see Aramaic Galileans taking their Jewish message to large Hellenistic Galilean cities, which also means they probably avoided all Hellenist together, as Hellenist were not only perverting their religion, they were their very oppressors. The people who wrote the bible were enemies of Aramaic Galileans. IMHO

This is where I stray from the majority of the academic field.