Sayings where Son of Man has replaced Jesus

[Michael BG]

It is often suggested that the gospel writers or early Christian communities changed references to Jesus to references to the Son of Man. This didn’t seem logical to me, but recently I discovered places where both Matthew and Luke did it.

Mt 16:13 from Mk 8:27

Mk 8:27

And Jesus went on with his disciples, to the villages of Caesare'a Philip'pi; and on the way he asked his disciples, "Who do men say that I am?"

Mt 16:13

Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesare'a Philip'pi, he asked his disciples, "Who do men say that the Son of man is?"

Luke has “Who do the people say that I am?” (9:18)

Mt 26:2 from Mk 14:1

Mk 14:1

It was now two days before the Passover and the feast of Unleavened Bread. And the chief priests and the scribes were seeking how to arrest him by stealth, and kill him;

Mt 26:2

"You know that after two days the Passover is coming, and the Son of man will be delivered up to be crucified."

Luke has “And the chief priests and the scribes were seeking how to put him to death” (22:2).

Lk 22:48 from Mk 14:45

Mk 14:45

And when he came, he went up to him at once, and said, "Master!" And he kissed him.

Lk 22:47e-48

He drew near to Jesus to kiss him; but Jesus said to him, "Judas, would you betray the Son of man with a kiss?

Matthew has ‘“Hail Master!" And he kissed him’.

Lk 24:6-7 from Mk 16:7

Mk 16:7

But go, tell his disciples and Peter that he is going before you to Galilee; there you will see him, as he told you."

Lk 24:6-7

Remember how he told you, while he was still in Galilee, that the Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and on the third day rise."

Matthew has ‘“Then go quickly and tell his disciples that he has risen from the dead, and behold, he is going before you to Galilee; there you will see him. Lo, I have told you"’ (Mt 28:7).

As Matthew and Luke can do this, then the door must be wide open for Mark and the author of Q to have done it too. If we have decided that Matthew, Luke, Mark and the author of Q all changed “I” sayings to “Son of Man” ones then it makes sense that the early Christian communities would also have changed “I” sayings to “Son of Man” ones.

[davidbrainerd]

This is why I think the only authentic "son of man" reference is "The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath, therefore the son of man (i.e. any man or every man) is lord over the sabbath." I.e. the sabbath is our slave not us its slaves, so we are its lord. That reference sounds authentic because it fits the OT idiom of son of man = human. Even Daniel's "one like a son of man" simply means "someone who looked human." Its a description not a title of some mystical figure. Angels address prophets like Jeremiah as "son of man" the way aliens in scifi movies address earthlings condescendingly as "human" or Greek gods address people as "mortal" (coincidentally how the NRSV translates "son of man" in these very passages where angels address a prophet). "The Son of man" as a mystical title is at odds with OT usage. It smacks of meddling by someone who thinks they understand the OT on some high level but who in fact is OT illiterate (i.e. any church father).

[iskander]

This is why I think the only authentic "son of man" reference is "The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath, therefore the son of man (i.e. any man or every man) is lord over the sabbath." I.e. the sabbath is our slave not us its slaves, so we are its lord. That reference sounds authentic because it fits the OT idiom of son of man = human. Even Daniel's "one like a son of man" simply means "someone who looked human." Its a description not a title of some mystical figure. Angels address prophets like Jeremiah as "son of man" the way aliens in scifi movies address earthlings condescendingly as "human" or Greek gods address people as "mortal" (coincidentally how the NRSV translates "son of man" in these very passages where angels address a prophet). "The Son of man" as a mystical title is at odds with OT usage. It smacks of meddling by someone who thinks they understand the OT on some high level but who in fact is OT illiterate (i.e. any church father).

"The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath, therefore the son of man (i.e. any man or every man) is lord over the sabbath." I.e. the sabbath is our slave not us its slaves, so we are its lord.

Yes Sir,Jesus says that God is the servant of man- that is God always wants the happiness of man and consequently his name must be used for that purpose and no other. This implies the power to change our understanding of God.


What does ' God is our servant' mean today?
The son of man takes the first step by admitting that organized religion is not to disappear in a foreseeable future. Then I look for a religion in which change is not too difficult to achieve.

The guiding principle for son of man is that we can only try to understand god and that therefore any concept of god is always man-made. This man-made god is not incompatible with the existence of a real God-Creator and it is also compatible with revelation. It is also compatible with atheism since god-creator need not exist, for an atheist it would only be a language to be used when appropriate.

This man-made god (our understanding of God-Creator) is a servant of mankind; if our understanding of God-Creator improves the well being of man then this new interpretation should replace the old one. This is good for atheists and is good for religious people too, since the road to heaven is not through suffering. The god that gives us a sample to taste of the paradise to come is the best approximation to God-Creator or simply to death after a pleasant life.

I look then to religions that have maximum capacity for change and I find what I am looking for in Christianity.I avoid and fear religions, which appear fixed and immobile.

[spin]

This topic seems to have stalled though there is still a lot of mileage in it. For example,

1. Why does Matt feature the Son of Man so much?

2. Why do some references to the Son of Man appear so clearly to refer to Jesus up to his death, while others seem just as clearly point to a port-resurrection figure?

3. Does one writer insert "the Son of Man" or another omit it? If the term is productive, why omit it? (Mt 16:13 strongly suggest an addition, if Mk 8:27 is the source which Mt and Lk 9:18 both use. Mt 16:21 omits an exemplar, though it may be because it was added earlier.)

---

Here's a table with all references to the Son of Man in the synoptic tradition (green indicates passion; blue eschatological):

Matthew	Mark	Luke
5:11 Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.	-	6:22 Blessed are you when people hate you and when they exclude you and revile you and spurn your name as evil, on account of the Son of Man
8:20 Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to hide his head	-	9:58 Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to hide his head
9:6 the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins	2:10 the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins	5:24 the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins
10:23 you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes	-	-
11:19 the Son of Man came eating and drinking	-	7:34 the Son of Man has come eating and drinking
12:8 the Son of Man is lord of the sabbath	2:28 the Son of Man is lord even of the sabbath	6:5 the Son of Man is lord of the sabbath
12:32 whoever says a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven	-	12:10 whoever says a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven
12:40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth	-	11:30 For as Jonah became a sign to the men of Nineveh, so will the Son of Man be to this generation
13:37 The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man	-	-
13:41 the Son of Man will send his angels	-	-
16:13 "Who do the people say the Son of Man is?"	8:27 "Who do the people say I am?"	9:18 "Who do the people say I am?"
16:21 he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things	8:31 the Son of Man must suffer many things	9:22 the Son of Man must suffer many things
16:27 the Son of Man is to come with his angels in his glory of his father	8:38 of him will the Son of Man also be ashamed when he comes in the glory of his father with the holy angels	9:26 of him will the Son of Man also be ashamed when he comes in his glory and the glory of his father with the holy angels
16:28 not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom	9:1 not taste death before they see the kingdom of God has come with power	9:27 not taste death before they see the kingdom of God
17:9 Tell no-one the vision, until the Son of Man is raised from the dead	9:9 tell no-one what they have seen, until the Son of Man should have risen from the dead	-
17:12 So also the Son of Man will suffer at their hands	-	-
	9:12 Elijah does come first to restore all things. And how is it written of the Son of Man that he should suffer many things
17:22 the Son of Man is to be delivered into the hands of men and they will kill him	9:31 the Son of Man is to be delivered into the hands of men and they will kill him	9:44 for the Son of Man is to be delivered into the hands of men
19:28 in the new world, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne	-	-
-	-	17:22 The days are coming when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it
-	-	18:8b Nevertheless, when the Son of man comes, will he find faith on earth?
20:18 we are going up to Jerusalem and the Son of Man will be delivered to...	10:33 we are going up to Jerusalem and the Son of Man will be delivered to...	18:31 we are going up to Jerusalem and everything that is written of the Son of Man by the prophets will be accomplished
20:28 for the Son of Man came not be served but to serve	10:45 for the Son of Man came not be served but to serve	-
24:27 For as lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man	-	17:24 For as lightning flashes and lights up the sky from one side to the other, so will the Son of Man be in his day
24:30a Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn	-	-
24:30b and they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.	13:26 and then they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with great power and glory.	21:27 and then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
-	-	21:36 But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man
24:37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man	-	17:26 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be in the days of the Son of Man
24:39 so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man	-	17:30 so will it be on the day the Son of Man is revealed
24:44 must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect	-	12:40 must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an unexpected hour
25:31 when the Son of Man comes in his glory and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne	-	-
-	-	19:10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost
26:2 after two days the passover is coming and the Son of Man will be delivered up to be crucified	14:1 two days before the passover and the feast of unleavened bread	22:1 The feast of unleavened bread drew near
26:24 the Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born	14:21 For the Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.	22:22 For the Son of Man goes as it has been determined, but woe to that man by whom he is betrayed
26:45 See, the hour is at hand, and the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners	14:41 It is enough; the hour has come. the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners	-
26:49 And he went up to Jesus at once, and said, "Hail, Master!" And he kissed him.	14:45 he went up to him at once, and said, "Master!" And he kissed him.	22:47-48 He drew near to Jesus to kiss him; but Jesus said, "Judas, would you betray the Son of Man with a kiss?"
26:64 from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven	14:62 and you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven	22:69 But from now on the Son of Man shall be seated at the right hand of the power of God
-	-	24:7 the Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men and be crucified and on the third day rise

[Secret Alias]

Answer: deliberate obscurification by second and third century editors

[Michael BG]

Here's a table with all references to the Son of Man in the synoptic tradition:

Thank you for the table. I think you have missed some.

Adela Yarbo Collins states there are 74 Son of man sayings and 37 distinct sayings (but this might include a couple not in the synoptics. I think Maurice Casey states there are 69 occurrences of the Son of Man in the Synoptic Gospels of which 38 are independent. You have 35.

Luke 18:8b

Nevertheless, when the Son of man comes, will he find faith on earth?"

Luke 17:22

And he said to the disciples, "The days are coming when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and you will not see it.

Luke 6:22

"Blessed are you when men hate you, and when they exclude you and revile you, and cast out your name as evil, on account of the Son of man!

Hopefully we have them all now.

[spin]

I think you have missed some.

Thanks. That was bound to happen, given a visit from a person from Porlock. Table's been updated! Any parallels without SoM that I missed should also really be in the table.

[davidbrainerd]

I wonder what the interpolator who added that "even" in Mark 2:28 thought he was accomplishing. Since Matt and Luke omit it, and it clearly is meaningless in context. The only thing being referenced that a son of man is lord of there is the sabbath. I guess the interpolator misunderstood the everyman reference and took son of man as referring only to Jesus, and then assumed Jesus was Lord of the Sabbath only because he's Lord (or LORD) in general in orthodoxy, so he adds this "even" to compare him being Lord of the sabbath to everything else he is Lord of in Orthodoxy, so now he is Lord "even" of the Sabbath. That's humorous.

[davidbrainerd]

There is also an interesting thing not reflected in your chart, namely that in the KJV of Matthew 16:13 (which I had to look up to make sure I hadn't fabricated a false memory), the KJV it says both "I" and "son of man".

"Whom do men say that I the Son of man am"

So this is not a simple matter of Matt saying "son of man" and another gospel saying "I" .... there must be variants within MSS of the same gospel!

[Ben C. Smith]

Both Bezae and Washingtonianus add a με ("me/I") to Matthew 16.13. So does the Byzantine tradition.