Simcha and Tabor idiots.

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
outhouse
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Simcha and Tabor idiots.

Post by outhouse »

The Last Days of Jesus

Aired tonight on PBS, it was a total embarrassment for any credible work done on the historical Jesus. All the people involved should be criticized harshly for this over attributing of this imaginative historicity poorly guessed at.

Simcha was the idiot ring leader and a handful of scholars backed this fancy fable of their version of Jesus death with Tabor knee deep in the crap. It pisses me off I don't have the names of the useless scholars on the tip of my tongue to deliver my criticism directly. Despite how famous they think they are. :roll:

It centers around a rich Jesus funded by Antipas who conspired with Sejanus to upset Caiaphas power and the corrupt temple priestly class the Sadducees. All which failed with Sejanus being condemned by Tiberius. It was all fueled by Antipas greed to be the king of the Jews like his father, and his rejection by Tiberius. After his failure with Tiberius to be given the whole Kingdom Antipas went to Sejanus and conspired a power play.

The idiocy of this conspiracy theory to me is overwhelming. It reminds me of wearing a tinfoil hat and trying to sell this to students on a very short bus, and realizing your riding in the short bus for a reason.

Many things mirrored my views on a foundational level, but many were imagination based as the nicest way I can explain it.

They first try and tie in the whole Galilean socioeconomic divide debate that Jesus was rich and well trained based SOLELY on the findings of the first century Galilean Nazareth house the church is built over, but they act like this is now 100% settled in full. It is not. MY REBUTTAL and sharp criticism is that it was likely LIKE Christian authors building divinity and authority as they were trained by placing him in the nicest house in Nazareth long after the time period the same way the Via Dolorosa was named long after the fact and far from any historical event. It is idiocy to place the village of Nazareth wealth as a whole based on one single house. Then they go further and attribute Jesus wealth that he is now magically a business owner as well. All based on a house they admit they cannot tie to him, but then do it in full anyway.

They claim Jesus was well connected to Antipas as well as the Pharisees that he was well educated and literate.

Besides the tinfoil hat conspiracy, instead of just claiming it up to rhetorical prose and artistic freedom to use fiction to sell the Christian agenda, these blithering idiots try and reason out the text as if they were literally accurate. Example. The palm fronds as Jesus made entry into the temple, Simcha states that frons are harvested 6 months earlier and that they could not nor would they cut them down for this entry, so Jesus entered the city 6 months previous and was arrested, and remained in jail for 6 months, and when Sejanus was found to be guilty of murdering Tiberius sons the whole web of lies came tumbling down and Pilate was forced to follow Tiberius decree of letting the oppressed subjects have complete religious freedom. At that point He was crucified.

This is another idiotic point they tried to sell. The heel bone with a crucifixion nail stuck in it. Simcha stated the nail was so short that it only could go through one foot, and that the wood was small and thin, so thin the nail went through the wood and hit a hard stone under it, as the reason for the curled nail, and that NOW crosses from this period were all light quick and easy mass produced crosses. And of course Israel Hershkovitz did find olive wood on the nail, but was it the wooden washer? Many other reasons for a curled nail IMHO. Its just stupidity.

You give this idiot Simcha and inch and he imagines a literal mile. Well I'm off to tell Mr Tabor personally what I thought about his participation.
Last edited by outhouse on Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
Secret Alias
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Re: Simcha and Tabor idiots.

Post by Secret Alias »

Rebuttal
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
davidbrainerd
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Re: Simcha and Tabor idiots.

Post by davidbrainerd »

It centers around a rich Jesus funded by Antipas who conspired with Sejanus to upset Caiaphas power and the corrupt temple priestly class the Sadducees.
Anyone who buys into the rabbinic conspiracy theory that the Sadducees were corrupt and the rabbis were some legit religious authority is not a real scholar.
Secret Alias
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Re: Simcha and Tabor idiots.

Post by Secret Alias »

But in defense of these guys ALL THE HISTORICAL RECONSTRUCTIONS rely too heavily on the certainty of the fragmentary information available to us. What do we have that's reliable? Josephus? Kind of? But there are problems here. The New Testament? No, not reliable as it is. Rabbinic literature? No. It's a bitches brew really but someone already established 'the truth' based on this bad information and they come around and try to use the same bad evidence to make another bad reconstruction. It's all bad not just the two dummies.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Simcha and Tabor idiots.

Post by Secret Alias »

The question for me is - don't these guys get to play make believe too? All the history of this part of the world is make believe. I am not saying there wasn't a history. I am not a typical mythicist. I grant there probably was a religion of Jesus in the first century. I grant that there was a Jewish War. I grant that Christianity was built around the prophesy associated with the War and the destruction of the temple. But using a text of unknown and uncertain provenance like Josephus (we don't know who Joseph was, we don't know when the text was first written/last written, we don't know really anything about this text other than Christians zealously preserved it) as the basis to building history is dangerous and misguided. There is no certainty with the information Josephus provides. Indeed Josephus's bare outline of the events of the Jewish War bear an uncanny resemblance to the later attempts to 'map out' Daniel chapter 9 as if it pointed to the events of 70 CE. This becomes exaggerated to the nth degree with later versions of Josephus (the Yosippon and Slavonic Josephus) but the bare kernel was already there. So to that end, I am not sure that 'Josephus' was an attempt to build 'history' around a prophesy rather than the other way around. That's why Christians liked 'Josephus' so much. It agreed with their own 'history' contained in the gospel.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
outhouse
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Re: Simcha and Tabor idiots.

Post by outhouse »

Secret Alias wrote:But in defense of these guys ALL THE HISTORICAL RECONSTRUCTIONS rely too heavily on the certainty of the fragmentary information available to us..

That's may be true, BUT there is credible research and tinfoil hat conspiracy theorys that do not deserve to be looked at, only flushed.

Its Simcha Jacobovici and he is not a scholar in any way. Stupid film maker playing scholar using scholars he verbally quote mines.
outhouse
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Re: Simcha and Tabor idiots.

Post by outhouse »

davidbrainerd wrote: the Sadducees were corrupt .

That is not up for debate, it is a historical certainty.
lsayre
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Re: Simcha and Tabor idiots.

Post by lsayre »

Secret Alias wrote:.... There is no certainty with the information Josephus provides. Indeed Josephus's bare outline of the events of the Jewish War bear an uncanny resemblance to the later attempts to 'map out' Daniel chapter 9 as if it pointed to the events of 70 CE. This becomes exaggerated to the nth degree with later versions of Josephus (the Yosippon and Slavonic Josephus) but the bare kernel was already there. So to that end, I am not sure that 'Josephus' was an attempt to build 'history' around a prophesy rather than the other way around. That's why Christians liked 'Josephus' so much. It agreed with their own 'history' contained in the gospel.
Are you suggesting that there is a strong likelihood that Josephus was not writing history that just so happens to coincidentally conform with prophecy, but rather that he intentionally made history (as he recorded it) conform to prophecy?
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spin
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Re: Simcha and Tabor idiots.

Post by spin »

davidbrainerd wrote:
It centers around a rich Jesus funded by Antipas who conspired with Sejanus to upset Caiaphas power and the corrupt temple priestly class the Sadducees.
Anyone who buys into the rabbinic conspiracy theory that the Sadducees were corrupt and the rabbis were some legit religious authority is not a real scholar.
(The same goes for anyone who buys the christian scriptures' presentation of Pharisees as anal-retentive hypocritical legal pedants.)
Dysexlia lures • ⅔ of what we see is behind our eyes
Charles Wilson
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Re: Simcha and Tabor idiots.

Post by Charles Wilson »

Secret Alias wrote:So to that end, I am not sure that 'Josephus' was an attempt to build 'history' around a prophesy rather than the other way around. That's why Christians liked 'Josephus' so much. It agreed with their own 'history' contained in the gospel.
lsayre wrote:Are you suggesting that there is a strong likelihood that Josephus was not writing history that just so happens to coincidentally conform with prophecy, but rather that he intentionally made history (as he recorded it) conform to prophecy?
Antiquities, 13, 14, 1 - 2:

"SO Demetrius came with an army, and took those that invited him, and pitched his camp near the city Shechem; upon which Alexander, with his six thousand two hundred mercenaries, and about twenty thousand Jews, who were of his party, went against Demetrius, who had three thousand horsemen, and forty thousand footmen. Now there were great endeavors used on both sides, - Demetrius trying to bring off the mercenaries that were with Alexander, because they were Greeks, and Alexander trying to bring off the Jews that were with Demetrius. However, when neither of them could persuade them so to do, they came to a battle, and Demetrius was the conqueror; in which all Alexander's mercenaries were killed, when they had given demonstration of their fidelity and courage. A great number of Demetrius's soldiers were slain also.

2. Now as Alexander fled to the mountains, six thousand of the Jews hereupon came together [from Demetrius] to him out of pity at the change of his fortune; upon which Demetrius was afraid, and retired out of the country; after which the Jews fought against Alexander, and being beaten, were slain in great numbers in the several battles which they had; and when he had shut up the most powerful of them in the city Bethome, he besieged them therein; and when he had taken the city, and gotten the men into his power, he brought them to Jerusalem, and did one of the most barbarous actions in the world to them; for as he was feasting with his concubines, in the sight of all the city, he ordered about eight hundred of them to be crucified; and while they were living, he ordered the throats of their children and wives to be cut before their eyes. This was indeed by way of revenge for the injuries they had done him..."

Mark 13: 17 (RSV):

[17] And alas for those who are with child and for those who give suck in those days!

Isayre, Secret Alias is 100% correct. You get a reference to Daniel - a Greek reference - and you get 2000 years of Prophecy and 70 Weeks explanations (I am not referencing the recent Dust-Up on this Site here...) and it never occurs to anyone ('Ceptin' me...) that the problem in Josephus is that the explanation of the Greek General Demetrius leaving because he was afraid and the Jews turning to Jannaeus is pure BOVINE OFFAL.

Demetrius parks the bus at Shechem NEAR GERIZIM. The Greek reference implies that Demetrius committed the Abomination of Desolation. The Anchor Verse in Mark aligns quite nicely with this idea. Events, Sequence and Intent all give weight to this. Either Josephus knew or someone very early on rewrote this to hide the Postdiction of Jannaeus into the Prediction of the End Time.

Joe Atwill, who is separated from me by thousands of miles, contra SA, has a nice analysis of Masada and its Time Line, showing how Josephus massaged the timing of events to get everything all lined up 'n stuff.

Take Josephus with a little salt before you take his history at face value.

CW
Last edited by Charles Wilson on Thu Apr 06, 2017 6:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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