Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

Peter Kirby wrote:

Ben C. Smith wrote:I said in the OP that I was changing "Joshua" to "Jesus" in the texts in order to preserve the feel of things

I think this was a good move -- it's accurate to the Greek (not more accurate, but equally accurate), and it shakes up our preconceptions in a way making it all "Joshua" in this post wouldn't (because it's traditionally rendered Joshua in most of these passages, creating a difference where there isn't).

Thanks. Right. I wanted to make it sound and feel to us what it must have sounded and felt like to a Greek (or Hebrew) reader.

Is Joshua an 'unnecessary' intermediate name in the 'progression' from Yeshua -> Jesus ?

This may also help explain 1 Corinthians 10:1-4, about Jesus/Joshua (same in Greek) being the spiritual rock that followed Moses in the desert. I think all of this is consistent with an allegorical concept of Moses replaced by Jesus, the Law (Moses) replaced by grace (Christ), as we see suggested in John 1:17.

Good topic. I am glad somebody brought it up.

delete

MrMacSon wrote:Is Joshua an 'unnecessary' intermediate name in the 'progression' from Yeshua -> Jesus ?

No. Joshua is a direct Anglicization of Yeshua, while Jesus is an Anglicization of the Latin Iesus, which is a Latinization of the Greek Ἰησοῦς, which is a Graecization of Yeshua.

Yehoshua -> Yeshua -> Joshua.
Yehoshua -> Yeshua -> Ἰησοῦς -> Iesus -> Jesus.

(This is part of why Joshua is closer to Yeshua than Jesus is. There are fewer steps leading to Joshua than to Jesus.)

MrMacSon wrote:

• Is Joshua an 'unnecessary' intermediate name in the 'progression' from Yeshua -> Jesus ?

Ben C. Smith wrote:
No. Joshua is a direct Anglicization of Yeshua, while Jesus is an Anglicization of the Latin Iesus, which is a Latinization of the Greek Ἰησοῦς, which is a Graecization of Yeshua.

Yehoshua -> Yeshua -> Joshua.
Yehoshua -> Yeshua -> Ἰησοῦς -> Iesus -> Jesus.

(This is part of why Joshua is closer to Yeshua than Jesus is. There are fewer steps leading to Joshua than to Jesus.)
.

Cheers Ben. I guess I was wondering if, as well as -

• Yeshua -> Joshua
  Yeshua -> Ἰησοῦς -> Iesus -> Jesus -

there could also have been

• Yeshua -> Jesus

or

• Yeshua -> Iesus -> Jesus.

in various places or communities.
.

I think the distinction is artificial. Something in our English language. We distinguish the common name Joshua from Jesus. We would never name our sons Jesus. But in Spanish there is no such distinction, much as in Greek. It's not uncommon to see a Spanish speaker named Jesus. I think this impacts German and English speakers Biblical reading.

Ben C. Smith wrote:The name Jesus/Joshua comes from the Hebrew Yehoshua, shortened to Yeshua.

His real Aramaic name was probably Isho

MrMacSon wrote:

MrMacSon wrote:

• Is Joshua an 'unnecessary' intermediate name in the 'progression' from Yeshua -> Jesus ?

Ben C. Smith wrote:
No. Joshua is a direct Anglicization of Yeshua, while Jesus is an Anglicization of the Latin Iesus, which is a Latinization of the Greek Ἰησοῦς, which is a Graecization of Yeshua.

Yehoshua -> Yeshua -> Joshua.
Yehoshua -> Yeshua -> Ἰησοῦς -> Iesus -> Jesus.

(This is part of why Joshua is closer to Yeshua than Jesus is. There are fewer steps leading to Joshua than to Jesus.)
.

Cheers Ben. I guess I was wondering if, as well as -

• Yeshua -> Joshua
  Yeshua -> Ἰησοῦς -> Iesus -> Jesus -

there could also have been

• Yeshua -> Jesus

or

• Yeshua -> Iesus -> Jesus.

in various places or communities.
.

It is really not about communities; it is about languages. For example, going from Yeshua straight to Jesus would mean that somebody took a Hebrew name and turned the yod into a J in the way one Anglicizes Hebrew words while simultaneously adding, for no apparent reason, a Latin case ending (-us). Why would someone do that when going straight from Hebrew to English? No, the Latin case ending obviously got there when it rendered the Greek ending (-οῦς).

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I should have avoided reference to and thus use of the anglicized Jesus. I guess my question is answered by the 2nd line here: -

Ben C Smith wrote:

• Yehoshua -> Yeshua -> Joshua.
  Yehoshua -> Yeshua -> Ἰησοῦς -> Iesus -> Jesus.

• ie. Yehoshua -> Yeshua -> Ἰησοῦς -> Iesus -> Jesus
  
  => Yehoshua -> Yeshua -> Ἰησοῦς -> Iesus