Re: The "Eight" According to Irenaeus
Posted: Fri May 12, 2017 8:08 am
And this is the perplexing nature of Adversus Haereses. On the surface the tome is very well organized. Someone has taken the time to write the words that Peter cited and prefaces and closing words to tie together each of the five books. This gives the work a superficial appearance of a 'plan.' But beyond that - and periodic excursus which are from the same editorial hand - the work appears as a kind of literary head cheese. Almost random ideas thrown into a literary blender.

Bits and pieces of Justin, Theophilus, Papias and other writers thrown together with editorial jelly. Sort of like the way a harmony gospel is imagined to be manufactured. It's so bad that its odd to think how little he actually quotes authors despite stealing their ideas to make the literary head cheese.
For instance in Book Three he starts by robbing Papias's general notion of a 'gospel of Matthew' written in Hebrew which is the source of the other gospels but doesn't cite him or credit him openly. The first real quote outside of the NT is the chronicle of Polycarp (or apostolic succession list WITH original commentary IMHO). Then there is that apocryphal stories about the John and Cerinthus in the bathhouse and the meeting between Polycarp and Marcion followed by a historical understanding of John and Paul operating in Ephesus around the same time. But there is very, very little open citation of the very material that makes up the literary head cheese which is odd.
About the only thing he cites is 'the elder' (strangely unnamed), Papias who may be one and the same with 'the elder,' and Justin's words again Marcion. But in five books very little in the way of open citation of material outside of the Bible. The one that stands out here is the succession list that appears in Hegesippus's (or Joseph the Jew's) chronicle.
But why if this really is the tradition that emerged from Rome and every other place in the Empire established by the founding apostles and disciples of Jesus is there this 'head cheese' quality to everything? Head cheese is secondary. You take stuff that was made a day or two ago and shred it up and make something new out of it.
I can't see how a believer - a believer in a set tradition for a long time - allows himself to pick and choose between gospels and writings of his own and other groups and shred them up to make something new. Irenaeus can't have been a Christian for very long or even a Christian at all. Can't shake that thought in my head.
Bits and pieces of Justin, Theophilus, Papias and other writers thrown together with editorial jelly. Sort of like the way a harmony gospel is imagined to be manufactured. It's so bad that its odd to think how little he actually quotes authors despite stealing their ideas to make the literary head cheese.
For instance in Book Three he starts by robbing Papias's general notion of a 'gospel of Matthew' written in Hebrew which is the source of the other gospels but doesn't cite him or credit him openly. The first real quote outside of the NT is the chronicle of Polycarp (or apostolic succession list WITH original commentary IMHO). Then there is that apocryphal stories about the John and Cerinthus in the bathhouse and the meeting between Polycarp and Marcion followed by a historical understanding of John and Paul operating in Ephesus around the same time. But there is very, very little open citation of the very material that makes up the literary head cheese which is odd.
About the only thing he cites is 'the elder' (strangely unnamed), Papias who may be one and the same with 'the elder,' and Justin's words again Marcion. But in five books very little in the way of open citation of material outside of the Bible. The one that stands out here is the succession list that appears in Hegesippus's (or Joseph the Jew's) chronicle.
But why if this really is the tradition that emerged from Rome and every other place in the Empire established by the founding apostles and disciples of Jesus is there this 'head cheese' quality to everything? Head cheese is secondary. You take stuff that was made a day or two ago and shred it up and make something new out of it.
I can't see how a believer - a believer in a set tradition for a long time - allows himself to pick and choose between gospels and writings of his own and other groups and shred them up to make something new. Irenaeus can't have been a Christian for very long or even a Christian at all. Can't shake that thought in my head.