Re: Tertullian's Praescriptione = Irenaeus's προστάγμασι
Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 2:08 pm
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I went to the link you provided and could not locate the (parenthetical) quotes Tertullian supposedly copied from Irenaeus.Secret Alias wrote:Parenthetically, it is clear that T had a detailed knowledge of" Irenaeus' work, for he also cites or quotes 24 Irenaeus in Adv. Marc. l and often in De an. https://books.google.com/books?id=-UlFA ... 0Q6AEIJzAA
This is not found in Irenaeus.For they say that after Wisdom had been cast down, in order that the number of the thirty might not be incomplete, the nine and twenty Aeons contributed each a little part, and formed the Christ: and they say that He also is both male and females
Is it that its not there, or that Cyril or a copyist accidentally wrote "Christ" instead of "Adam"?Secret Alias wrote:Cyril writes:
This is not found in Irenaeus.For they say that after Wisdom had been cast down, in order that the number of the thirty might not be incomplete, the nine and twenty Aeons contributed each a little part, and formed the Christ: and they say that He also is both male and females
It is my contention that this comment should be properly contextualized as a continuation of what is said in Adv Haer 3 where with the coming of Polycarp "in the time of Anicetus caused many to turn away from the aforesaid heretics (Marcion, Valentinus) to the Church of God."or it is agreed that they lived not so very long ago in the reign of Antoninus (138 - 161) for the most part, and that at first they were believers in the doctrine of the Catholic Church in Rome during the episcopate of the blessed Eleutherus, until, on account of their ever restless speculation whereby they corrupted the brethren also, they were expelled more than once—Marcion, indeed, with the two hundred sesterces that he had brought into the Church—and when at last banished into perpetual separation from the faithful, they spread abroad the poisonous seeds of their peculiar doctrines. Afterwards, when Marcion had professed penitence and agreed to the condition imposed upon him, namely, that if he could bring back to the Church the residue whom he had instructed to their perdition, he should be received into communion, he was prevented by death.
Clearly the same idea is present here. Polycarp who came to Rome under Anicetus to introduce us to Marcion established orthodoxy there and Marcion tried to adapt himself to the new rules. However by the time he asked to recognized, Marcion had already reached the two strikes and your out rule from the Pastoral epistles. That's why we should see the 'asking Polycarp to be recognized' and the purchasing of the church as one and the same historical 'moment.' For when the Prescription says:And Polycarp himself replied to Marcion, who met him on one occasion, and said, "Dost thou know me?" "I do know thee, the first-born of Satan." Such was the horror which the apostles and their disciples had against holding even verbal communication with any corrupters of the truth; as Paul also says, "A man that is an heretic, after the first and second admonition, reject; knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself."
The giving of two hundred sesterces is the lead up to asking Polycarp to be recognized both of which end with him being permanently banned from the Church.they were expelled more than once—Marcion, indeed, with the two hundred sesterces that he had brought into the Church—and when at last banished into perpetual separation from the faithful
Clearly then you can believe what you want to believe. If you want to believe that there was a real Marcion who was a heretic up until the time of Anicetus and then - with the coming of Polycarp - was rebuked and then tried to join the Church but kept falling away - as the Prescription says 'because of his overeager imagination' and then was excommunicated only to reach a deal that he would bring in his Church into communion and then died - that's your privilege but most people it is a development of what appears in Adv Haer 3:For Valentinus came to Rome in the time of Hyginus, flourished under Pius, and remained until Anicetus. Cerdon, too, Marcion's predecessor, himself arrived in the time of Hyginus, who was the ninth bishop.(5) Coming frequently into the Church, and making public confession, he thus remained, one time teaching in secret, and then again making public confession; but at last, having been denounced for corrupt teaching, he was excommunicated(6) from the assembly of the brethren. Marcion, then, succeeding him, flourished under Anicetus, who held the tenth place of the episcopate.
Could certainly be read as if the speaker was named Cerdo perhaps the origin of the heretic of this name.For to me, to live as Christ (ζῆν Χριστὸς) and to die as gain (ἀποθανεῖν κέρδος). Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two
My point is that Irenaeus as used by Cyril is at least vaguely related to Against Heresies and not related at all to the material in Tertullian's Prescription.Secret Alias wrote:As noted above I do not find this argument in Book One of Against Heresies. Perhaps you are a better locator of these things than I. The beginning of arguments on behalf of Cyril's copy of Irenaeus's Prescriptions Against Heresies being related to Tertullian's Prescription Against Heresies:This would work for Against Heresies which does contain such material but not for an original version of the Prescription which does not discuss this issue.
http://stephanhuller.blogspot.com/2017/ ... aeuss.html
Wrong again!Secret Alias wrote:I am not going to spend hours at this site being distracted by bored morons who want me to prove things that are self-evident (this is not a reference to you at all, just a general comment). With respect to the question of Marcion's repentance, I happen not to believe the report for several reasons and I - as an aside - suspect the reason you believe it is because you have fallen victim to the silly notion that Marcion was anti-Semitic and so believe the Church Fathers when they right buttons for you.
So says Irenaeus.The problem Marcion faced with Tertullian is he (Marcion) created his own god (demiurge) based on the doctrines of Credo.
But almost everyone acknowledges that the Marcionites with the first to have a canon. So how could his theology be in conflict with the New Testament?Although professing to be a Christian, his bizarre theology was in direct contradiction of the Old and New Testament.
But you're creating a problem which doesn't exist. Irenaeus said X, Y and Z about the Marcionites. Fine. But he also put forward or accepted as 'reasonable fact' that the 70 translators of the Hebrew Bible all came up with the exact same translation of the entire Bible - proof that the Holy Spirit was working in all of them. Not a credible witness.What to do? Marcion decided to disregard the Old Testament and most of the New Testament,
But someone who just takes the words of a text 2000 years ago at face value is a moron. Surely just because someone says something is true that doesn't make it true. Do you think that the 70 all arrived at the verbatim translation of the Hebrew Bible? Forget about whether the Holy Spirit was involved. Do you believe that Irenaeus's claim that the 70 arrived at the exact - i.e. verbatim - translation of the Hebrew into Greek? Do you believe that?except for Luke which he took a razor and removed the parts that did not serve him well. Now you can believe what you want to believe and deny what you want to deny just like Marcion and call all others morons but that does not make it true. Only wishful thinking.
But would you agree that it was possible that someone took the Appendix Against All Heresies or an early Greek predecessor as part of the original work?My point is that Irenaeus as used by Cyril is at least vaguely related to Against Heresies and not related at all to the material in Tertullian's Prescription.