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A Marcionite Reading of Zechariah 11:13

Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:02 am
by Secret Alias
It was a stunning confirmation of scripture when Cyril read the Passion narrative and saw it went back to Zechariah:
Listen also for the thirty pieces of silver. And I will say to them, If it be good in your sight, give me my price, or refuse Zechariah 11:12, and the rest. One price is owing to Me from you for My healing the blind and lame, and I receive another; for thanksgiving, dishonour, and for worship, insult. Do you see how the Scripture foresaw these things? And they weighed for My price thirty pieces of silver. Ib How exact the prophecy! How great and unerring the wisdom of the Holy Ghost! For he said, not ten, nor twenty, but thirty, exactly as many as there were. Tell also what becomes of this price, O Prophet! Does he who received it keep it? Or does he give it back? And after he has given it back, what becomes of it? The Prophet says then, And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them into the house of the Lord, into the foundry. Compare the Gospel with the Prophecy: Judas, it says, repented himself, and cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed.
But then he noticed a discrepancy in Matthew:
11. But now I have to seek the exact solution of this seeming discrepancy. For they who make light of the prophets, allege that the Prophet says on the one hand, And I cast them into the house of the Lord, into the foundry, but the Gospel on the other hand, And they gave them for the potter's field. Hear then how they are both true. For those conscientious Jews forsooth, the high-priests of that time, when they saw that Judas repented and said, I have sinned, in that I have betrayed innocent blood, reply, What is that to us, see thou to that. Is it then nothing to you, the crucifiers? But shall he who received and restored the price of murder see to it, and shall you the murderers not see to it? Then they say among themselves, It is not lawful to cast them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood. Out of your own mouths is your condemnation; if the price is polluted, the deed is polluted also: but if you are fulfilling righteousness in crucifying Christ, why do you not receive the price of it? But the point of iniquity is this: how is there no disagreement, if the Gospel says, the potter's field, and the Prophet, the foundry? Nay, but not only people who are goldsmiths, or brass-founders, have a foundry, but potters also have foundries for their clay. For they sift off the fine and rich and useful earth from the gravel, and separate from it the mass of the refuse matter, and temper the clay first with water, that they may work it with ease into the forms intended. Why then do you wonder that the Gospel says plainly the potter's field, whereas the Prophet spoke his prophecy like an enigma, since prophecy is in many places enigmatical?
Yes Cyril has rightly noted that the LXX substitutes "furnace" for the original "potter" of the Hebrew. So the gospel account is developed from the Hebrew text of Zechariah where we read:
Then I took my staff called Favor and broke it, revoking the covenant I had made with all the nations. It was revoked on that day, and so the oppressed of the flock who were watching me knew it was the word of the Lord. I told them, “If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it.” So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. And the Lord said to me, “Throw it to the potter”—the handsome price at which they valued me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them to the potter at the house of the Lord. Then I broke my second staff called Union, breaking the family bond between Judah and Israel.
Of course Matthew's account of the money going to buy a potter's field is a (bad) attempt to reconcile the gospel text to Zechariah. But I wonder whether the Marcionites read Zechariah's 'potter' as the δημιουργός = "artisan" or "craftsman." Already Tertullian describes the Demiurge as a potter. I wonder whether Judas's act of giving 'thirty' to the Demiurge symbolically 'purchased' the Creator's 'goods'? This passage and Zechariah was key to understanding Marcionite redemption and Judas's role in it.

Re: A Marcionite Reading of Zechariah 11:13

Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:15 am
by Secret Alias
Curious also that שְׂכָרִ֔י (my price) in Hebrew looks so much like Iscariot http://cal.huc.edu/showjastrow.php?page=1576 שכר

Re: A Marcionite Reading of Zechariah 11:13

Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:21 am
by davidbrainerd
The Marcionites didnt use Matthew or Acts so they didnt have the story of Judas and the 30 pieces of silver nonsense. And since they didnt believe the OT predicted NT invents they didnt create this story, the 'orthodox' did. Quit being stupid.

Re: A Marcionite Reading of Zechariah 11:13

Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:27 am
by Secret Alias
And then it starts to make sense. The thirty pieces of silver was clearly connected with 'redemption' of a slave via Exodus 21:32:
If the bull gores a male or female slave, the owner must pay thirty shekels of silver to the master of the slave, and the bull is to be stoned to death.
In other words, the value of a slave was set at thirty pieces of silver. https://books.google.com/books?id=vn7sC ... er&f=false So whomever it was that crucified was understood to be the possession or property of the Demiurge. Judas throws the thirty pieces as part of the redemption of the crucified one.

Re: A Marcionite Reading of Zechariah 11:13

Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:30 am
by Secret Alias
The Marcionites didnt use Matthew or Acts so they didnt have the story of Judas and the 30 pieces of silver nonsense
Yes the Marcionites didn't use Matthew but they had a gospel with this story which now only appears in Matthew in our set. There is no other good explanation for the consistent obsession of the Marcionites with being purchased by the blood of Jesus. How could this Pauline idea not have been present in their gospel? It only makes sense because you have preprogrammed your brain to accept that the Marcionite gospel was a version of Luke. It doesn't make sense to anyone else. How could the gospel be more sacred than the Pentateuch but fail to mention the most sancrosact of Marcionite concepts - the being bought by the price of the blood of Jesus? This is why myopia is so debilitating. You can only confirm your pre-existent beliefs. You can't see beyond your own ego.

Re: A Marcionite Reading of Zechariah 11:13

Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:34 am
by Secret Alias
The first step to liberating yourself from pre-conditioned responses is to accept (a) the possibility that the reports of the Church Fathers are not accurate and (b) that instead of seeing 5 Church Fathers saying the same thing as if each of them went outside and viewed the same phenomenon separately and across a long span of time that the '5 separate witnesses' really amounted to 1 bad witness and the same bad opinion being recycled at least 4 subsequent times.

Think of all the reports of the Church Fathers claiming that there really was a fucking bird called the Phoenix which lived in Egypt and died everyday or every year or whatever in a fire in some temple or place. I can't tell you the number of times this idiotic story is repeated as a proof of the resurrection. Do you really believe that there was this 'resurrecting bird' merely because 5 Church Fathers claimed it was true? Of course not. The Church Fathers were lazy and cared less about the truth than confirming orthodoxy. And orthodoxy eventually became the slogan that Marcion corrupted Luke.

Re: A Marcionite Reading of Zechariah 11:13

Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:36 am
by davidbrainerd
Just give up. Theres no need to turn the Marcionites into Valentinians. Youre a Valentenian. We get it. That doesnt mean Marcion was, you lying bastard. Give it up.

Re: A Marcionite Reading of Zechariah 11:13

Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:38 am
by Secret Alias
Theres no need to turn the Marcionites into Valentinians.
You are so lazy. You should have been a Church Father. All you need is belief in God and you could recycle their nonsense with a good conscience. Maybe the Marcionites used a gospel of Luke written with the feathers of the phoenix bird. Why not? If a Church Father said it, it must be true.

Re: A Marcionite Reading of Zechariah 11:13

Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:43 am
by Secret Alias
I don't understand why on the one hand you accept uncritically this claim about the Marcionites and Luke. If a believer like Criddle can look at Tertullian and approach the text critically and say 'hey book 4 was likely composed from a gospel harmony' why can't an atheist alt-right guy go beyond merely saying 'hey the Church Fathers say that Marcion corrupted Luke, I will say Luke is based on Marcion's gospel' - to 'maybe the evidence for Marcion's gospel's dependence on Luke isn't that compelling'? It just shows you that faith doesn't obstruct creativity. Rather it is intellectual limitation that's the enemy here. You just don't have the intellectual capacity to see that the evidence isn't that compelling for a 'Luke only' gospel of Marcion.

Re: A Marcionite Reading of Zechariah 11:13

Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:06 pm
by iskander
Secret Alias wrote:I don't understand why on the one hand you accept uncritically this claim about the Marcionites and Luke. If a believer like Criddle can look at Tertullian and approach the text critically and say 'hey book 4 was likely composed from a gospel harmony' why can't an atheist alt-right guy go beyond merely saying 'hey the Church Fathers say that Marcion corrupted Luke, I will say Luke is based on Marcion's gospel' - to 'maybe the evidence for Marcion's gospel's dependence on Luke isn't that compelling'? It just shows you that faith doesn't obstruct creativity. Rather it is intellectual limitation that's the enemy here. You just don't have the intellectual capacity to see that the evidence isn't that compelling for a 'Luke only' gospel of Marcion.
Secret Alias wrote:You just don't have the intellectual capacity...
They are many that say Marcion was the mutilator of Luke.
Giuseppe wrote:@iskander
Is that what Marcion says?


So Sebastian Moll would answer your question (I can accept it):
As far as his personal development was concerned, Marcion’s soul appeared to be infested by a fanatical hatred of the world. We do not know what caused this immense feeling of hatred, but we do know that he was so tormented by it that he needed an explanation for all the evil in the world, or, more precisely, he needed someone to blame for it. Again, we do not know at which point of his life this search ended for him, but we do know the result of this search: Marcion found someone responsible in the form of the Creator. While blaming the (negative) status of the creation on the Creator is not actually an original idea, Marcion did not simply have an anonymous Creator in mind; he specifically blamed the God of the Old Testament.

http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/mol358031.shtml

So, Marcion is an irrational hater.
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