Mark’s Olivet Discourse - Probably not about the Temple

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

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As a starting point: I think this is more or less the structure of the Olivet discours (Mark 14:3-37)

conversational situation	3 And as he sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, 4 “Tell us,
first question	- when will these things be,
second question	- and what will be the sign when all these things are about to be accomplished?”
start of the first answer deceivers and earthly shakings	5 And Jesus began to say to them, “See that no one leads you astray. 6 Many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am he!’ and they will lead many astray. 7 And when you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed. This must take place, but the end is not yet. 8 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places; there will be famines.
description of the time	These are but the beginning of the birth pains.
steadfastness of the disciples	9 “But be on your guard. For they will deliver you over to councils, and you will be beaten in synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for my sake, to bear witness before them. 10 And the gospel must first be proclaimed to all nations. 11 And when they bring you to trial and deliver you over, do not be anxious beforehand what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour, for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit. 12 And brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death. 13 And you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
flight of the disciples in Judea	14 “But when you see the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not to be (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15 Let the one who is on the housetop not go down, nor enter his house, to take anything out, 16 and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. 17 And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! 18 Pray that it may not happen in winter.
description of the time	19 For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now, and never will be. 20 And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days.
deceivers and heavenly shakings	21 And then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘Look, there he is!’ do not believe it. 22 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform signs and wonders, to lead astray, if possible, the elect. 23 But be on guard; I have told you all things beforehand. 24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.
end of the first answer	26 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then he will send out the angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.
second answer	28 “From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. 29 So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 30 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. 32 “But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Be on guard, keep awake. For you do not know when the time will come.
conversational situation	34 It is like a man going on a journey, when he leaves home and puts his servants in charge, each with his work, and commands the doorkeeper to stay awake. 35 Therefore stay awake—for you do not know when the master of the house will come, in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or in the morning— 36 lest he come suddenly and find you asleep. 37 And what I say to you I say to all: Stay awake.”

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

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In German scholarship, the second half of the 20th century gave rise to the predominant view that the major issue of the 13th chapter of GMark is the destruction of the temple and the conquering of Jerusalem in the Jewish war. GMark was dated in relation to the war and the Olivet discourse was interpreted in the light of these historical events. The main point of the discussions was whether GMark was written shortly before (Hengel) or shortly after (Theissen) the destruction. The whole interest of the scholars was and is focused on the relation between the text and the historical events.

I would claim that Jesus sermon on the Mount of Olives in GMark has not the function to make a revelation or prophecy about future events, but to prepare the disciples for the time up to the coming of the son of man. Mark 13:34 says this explicitly.

34 It is like a man going on a journey, when he leaves home and puts his servants in charge, each with his work, and commands the doorkeeper to stay awake.

It seems to me that Mark agrees with Paul at least on five essential things. The most important event is the coming of the son of man/Lord, he will gather his elect, no one knows the time, there could be “birth pains” and therefore one must stay awake.

Mark 13 8 These are but the beginning of the birth pains. 26 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then he will send out the angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven. 32 “But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 35 Therefore stay awake—for you do not know when the master of the house will come,

1 Thessalonians 4-5 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 5:1 Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you. 2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. ... 6 So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober.

Furthermore, there are no certain references to the historical events of the Jewish war in Mark 13, only two or three possible allusions. Jerusalem and the holy temple (ναός - naos) are not mentioned, only the temple area with the courts (ἱερόν - hieron).

I would like to discuss the question which importance these possible allusions to the historical events have for Mark’s Olivet discourse and I’m not sure that is much more than a side note.

[Charles Wilson]

Hello KK --

Mark 13: 14, 17 (Moffatt):

[14] But when you see the appalling Horror standing where he has no right to stand (let the reader note this), then let those who are in Judea fly to the hills;
...
[17] Woe to women with child and to women who give suck

Josephus, Antiquties..., 13, 14, 2:

"Now as Alexander fled to the mountains, six thousand of the Jews hereupon came together [from Demetrius] to him out of pity at the change of his fortune; upon which Demetrius was afraid, and retired out of the country; after which the Jews fought against Alexander, and being beaten, were slain in great numbers in the several battles which they had; and when he had shut up the most powerful of them in the city Bethome, he besieged them therein; and when he had taken the city, and gotten the men into his power, he brought them to Jerusalem, and did one of the most barbarous actions in the world to them; for as he was feasting with his concubines, in the sight of all the city, he ordered about eight hundred of them to be crucified; and while they were living, he ordered the throats of their children and wives to be cut before their eyes. This was indeed by way of revenge for the injuries they had done him; which punishment yet was of an inhuman nature, though we suppose that he had been never so much distressed, as indeed he had been, by his wars with them, for he had by their means come to the last degree of hazard, both of his life and of his kingdom..."

I'm not gonna take up much time here, other than to assert the obvious: Demetrius Eucerus committed the Abomination of Desolation. Alexander Jannaeus retreats (in an absurd description from Josephus) and then marches on Jerusalem where the throats of the pregnant and nursing women are slit in front of their crucified men - "Woe to women with child and to women who give suck".

'N there it is...

CW

[MrMacSon]

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Furthermore, there are no certain references to the historical events of the Jewish war in Mark 13, only two or three possible allusions. Jerusalem and the holy temple (ναός - naos) are not mentioned, only the temple area with the courts* (ἱερόν - hieron).

I would like to discuss the question which importance these possible allusions to the historical events have for Mark’s Olivet discourse and I’m not sure that is much more than a side note.

• * Is 'courts' referring to inner courtyards or outer courts (or outer courtyards)? or a combination?

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

Hello KK --

Mark 13: 14, 17 (Moffatt):

[14] But when you see the appalling Horror standing where he has no right to stand (let the reader note this), then let those who are in Judea fly to the hills;
...
[17] Woe to women with child and to women who give suck

Josephus, Antiquties..., 13, 14, 2:

"Now as Alexander fled to the mountains, six thousand of the Jews hereupon came together [from Demetrius] to him out of pity at the change of his fortune; upon which Demetrius was afraid, and retired out of the country; after which the Jews fought against Alexander, and being beaten, were slain in great numbers in the several battles which they had; and when he had shut up the most powerful of them in the city Bethome, he besieged them therein; and when he had taken the city, and gotten the men into his power, he brought them to Jerusalem, and did one of the most barbarous actions in the world to them; for as he was feasting with his concubines, in the sight of all the city, he ordered about eight hundred of them to be crucified; and while they were living, he ordered the throats of their children and wives to be cut before their eyes. This was indeed by way of revenge for the injuries they had done him; which punishment yet was of an inhuman nature, though we suppose that he had been never so much distressed, as indeed he had been, by his wars with them, for he had by their means come to the last degree of hazard, both of his life and of his kingdom..."

I'm not gonna take up much time here, other than to assert the obvious: Demetrius Eucerus committed the Abomination of Desolation. Alexander Jannaeus retreats (in an absurd description from Josephus) and then marches on Jerusalem where the throats of the pregnant and nursing women are slit in front of their crucified men - "Woe to women with child and to women who give suck".

'N there it is...

Thanks Charles. Could you a bit explain what your point is? (btw My impression was always that the fled to the mountains could be an allusion to 1 Maccabees 2: “27 Then Mattathias cried out in the city, “Let everyone who is zealous for the law and who stands by the covenant follow me!” 28 Then he and his sons fled to the mountains, leaving behind in the city all their possessions.”)

To be clear, I do not question that in Mark 13 are one or two allusions to the Jewish war. But I would claim that the historical events had no or only little relevance for the content of the Olivet discourse. The issue und function of the Olivet discourse is imho the preperation of the disciples up to the time of the coming of the son of man.

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

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Furthermore, there are no certain references to the historical events of the Jewish war in Mark 13, only two or three possible allusions. Jerusalem and the holy temple (ναός - naos) are not mentioned, only the temple area with the courts* (ἱερόν - hieron).

I would like to discuss the question which importance these possible allusions to the historical events have for Mark’s Olivet discourse and I’m not sure that is much more than a side note.

• * Is 'courts' referring to inner courtyards or outer courts (or outer courtyards)? or a combination?

Greek Word Studies wrote

Two Greek words are both translated by the one word temple. Each has a distinctive meaning and refers to a particular thing. Hieron comes from a word meaning “holy, hallowed, consecrated,” and was used of earthly things devoted or dedicated by man to a god. It was later used in the New Testament to designate the temple at Jerusalem. It includes the entire sacred enclosure with its porticos, courts, and other subordinate buildings. It is never used figuratively. Naos referred to the inner sanctuary, composed of the Holy of Holies and the Holy Place. Only priests could lawfully enter. Naos was used among heathen to denote a shrine containing the idol (Acts 17:24; 19:24). When referring to the Jerusalem temple, Josephus, Philo, the Septuagint, and the New Testament always distinguished hieron from naos. After describing the building of the naos by Solomon, Josephus wrote: “Outside the temple (naos) he constructed a sacred enclosure (hieron) in the form of a square.”

I would say, if one would refer to the destruction of the temple, the term “naos” would be expected because that is the “crime”. It is also the case in Mark 14-15:

14:57 And some stood up and bore false witness against him, saying, 58 “We heard him say, ‘I will destroy this temple (ναὸν) that is made with hands, and in three days I will build another, not made with hands.’”

15:29 And those who passed by derided him, wagging their heads and saying, “Aha! You who would destroy the temple (ναὸν) and rebuild it in three days, 30 save yourself, and come down from the cross!”

[iskander]

The speech in Mark 13 which begins with : And as he was going out of the temple courts, one of his disciples...
Καὶ αὐτοῦ ἐκπορευομένου ἐκ τοῦ ἱεροῦ εἷς αὐτοῦ τῶν μαθητῶν ..
Jesus said : "Not one stone will be left here on another stone that will not be thrown down "

[Ben C. Smith]

To be clear, I do not question that in Mark 13 are one or two allusions to the Jewish war. But I would claim that the historical events had no or only little relevance for the content of the Olivet discourse. The issue and function of the Olivet discourse is imho the preparation of the disciples up to the time of the coming of the son of man.

My two cents, for whatever they may be worth.

You mentioned Theissen, and I currently tend to agree with him on the broad strokes when it comes to this chapter, with a bit of Garrow, Crossan, and my own stuff thrown in:

1. Mark 13.1-4 is about the destruction of Jerusalem. But the rest of the chapter is not. These opening verses were added in order to make the rest of the chapter fit in with the events of 70. (Luke 21.20 has gone even further in this direction.)
2. Mark 13.5-13, 21-23 is about the general tenor of the times, a prophetic word of preparation for the time of the end. In context it is intended for the disciples, but I suspect it originated as a Christian prophecy meant for members of the church.
3. Mark 13.14-20 is about the Caligula crisis, which is a true parallel to the Maccabean events of Daniel and 1 Maccabees. I agree with you, Kunigunde, that the motif of running for the hills derives from Mattathias. And the abomination of desolation obviously derives from Daniel 9.27. None of this has to do with the destruction of the temple; it has to do with the defilement of the temple, which actually happened under Antiochus and nearly happened under Caligula.
4. Mark 13.24-27 is about the coming of the son of man proper. I think that the scenario in verse 26 originated as a combination of Zechariah 14.5 ("the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with Him"), Zechariah 12.10 ("they will look on me whom they have pierced"), and Daniel 7.13 ("with the clouds of heaven one like a son of man was coming"). Crossan and Garrow have some good discussions of this point. And this part has nothing directly to do with the destruction of the temple.
5. Mark 13.28-37 is still about the coming of the son of man.

Overall, I see only one true reference to the destruction of the temple (and of Jerusalem overall), and that reference is the one which starts the chapter off. The rest was not really about that until it was put into this context.

[Secret Alias]

The same psychological difficulties with this chapter as is shown with all early Christian material. We want the right to have firm opinions and so we need firm evidence. This is why we ignore that ALL our surviving testimonials have been reworked many times over. So what is the current chapter in Mark saying and what did the gospel originally say are two different things. Originally it was all about the temple and then later not so much.

Virgins were always prized as wives but hard to find one in an age of prostitution or if you prefer:



Married a virgin, dog from pet store. Studying a prostituted religious tradition (and whores generally) made me value purity. Never mistake a whore for a virgin (or vice versa).

[Ben C. Smith]

Virgins were always prized as wives but hard to find one in an age of prostitution or if you prefer....

Married a virgin, dog from pet store. Studying a prostituted religious tradition (and whores generally) made me value purity. Never mistake a whore for a virgin (or vice versa).

Wow, can you ever be creepy sometimes.