Earliest attestation for Paul's letters?
Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:15 pm
Is there any attestation for the existence of any of the letters attributed to Paul prior to their having been popularized by Marcion?
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Earliest attestation for Paul's letters?
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Re: Earliest attestation for Paul's letters?
Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:33 pm
Ignatius (who is writing against an unnamed Marcionite-like doctrine decades before Marcion) acknowledges the existence of Pauline epistles but his claims of what's in them shows he has no clue what's in them or cannot accept much of what's in them. Most likely he is the beginning of an attempt to figure out a way to take over the epistles from these proto-Marcionites and use them in orthodoxy's defence. Then there's the fake epistle of Clement, a back-dated Paul quote-fest designed to trick you into thinking orthodoxy always accepted Paul.
Re: Earliest attestation for Paul's letters?
Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:35 pm
From memory. Peter and then Paul and then epistles of Paul are referenced in 1 Clement. So are echoes of Paul especially 1 Corinthians. So too Ignatius there is "Peter and Paul." Direct attestation? I am guessing Polycarp.
Re: Earliest attestation for Paul's letters?
Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:43 pm
What are the accepted dates for these writings of Ignatius and Polycarp? What is the earliest year in which Marcion (if he ever really existed) could possibly have attested to Paul's letters?
Re: Earliest attestation for Paul's letters?
Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:30 pm
Polycarp's references to Paul are in a thread of mine: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3285.
Clement has the following references to Paul:
Ehrman writes as follows about 2 Clement on page 156 of his first Loeb volume of the Apostolic Fathers:
Ignatius (middle recension) has the following:
I have read arguments (I forget where) that the epistle to Diognetus depends upon several Pauline epistles, as well.
The dates of all of these texts are pretty open to argumentation.
Ben.
Clement has the following references to Paul:
1 Clement 5.1-7: 1 But to stop giving ancient examples, let us come to those who became athletic contenders in quite recent times. We should consider the noble examples of our own generation. 2 Because of jealousy and envy the greatest and most upright pillars were persecuted, and they struggled in the contest even to death. 3 We should set before our eyes the good apostles. 4 There is Peter, who because of unjust jealousy bore up under hardships not just once or twice, but many times; and having thus borne his witness he went to the place of glory that he deserved. 5 Because of jealousy and strife Paul pointed the way to the prize for endurance. 6 Seven times he bore chains; he was sent into exile and stoned; he served as a herald in both the East and the West; and he received the noble reputation for his faith. 7 He taught righteousness to the whole world, and came to the limits of the West, bearing his witness before the rulers. And so he was set free from this world and transported up to the holy place, having become the greatest example of endurance.
1 Clement 47.1-7: 1 Take up the epistle of that blessed apostle, Paul. 2 What did he write to you at first, at the beginning of his proclamation of the gospel? 3 To be sure, he sent you a letter in the Spirit concerning himself and Cephas and Apollos, since you were even then engaged in partisanship. 4 But that partisanship involved you in a relatively minor sin, for you were partisan towards reputable apostles and a man approved by them. 5 But now consider who has corrupted you and diminished the respect you had because of your esteemed love of others. 6 It is shameful, loved ones, exceedingly shameful and unworthy of your conduct in Christ, that the most secure and ancient church of the Corinthians is reported to have created a faction against its presbyters, at the instigation of one or two persons. 7 And this report has reached not only us but even those who stand opposed to us, so that blasphemies have been uttered against the Lord s name because of your foolishness; and you are exposing yourselves to danger.
1 Clement 47.1-7: 1 Take up the epistle of that blessed apostle, Paul. 2 What did he write to you at first, at the beginning of his proclamation of the gospel? 3 To be sure, he sent you a letter in the Spirit concerning himself and Cephas and Apollos, since you were even then engaged in partisanship. 4 But that partisanship involved you in a relatively minor sin, for you were partisan towards reputable apostles and a man approved by them. 5 But now consider who has corrupted you and diminished the respect you had because of your esteemed love of others. 6 It is shameful, loved ones, exceedingly shameful and unworthy of your conduct in Christ, that the most secure and ancient church of the Corinthians is reported to have created a faction against its presbyters, at the instigation of one or two persons. 7 And this report has reached not only us but even those who stand opposed to us, so that blasphemies have been uttered against the Lord s name because of your foolishness; and you are exposing yourselves to danger.
Ehrman writes as follows about 2 Clement on page 156 of his first Loeb volume of the Apostolic Fathers:
He also appears to allude to the writings of Paul (e.g., in the image of the athlete in ch. 7 [cf. 1 Cor 9:24-27] and of the potter and clay in ch. 8 [cf. Rom 9:19-24]), but does not cite any of his books explicitly.
Ignatius (middle recension) has the following:
Ignatius to the Ephesians 12.1-2: 1 I know who I am and to whom I am writing. I am condemned, you have been shown mercy; I am in danger, you are secure. 2 You are a passageway for those slain for God; you are fellow initiates with Paul, the holy one who received a testimony and proved worthy of all fortune. When I attain to God, may I be found in his footsteps, this one who mentions you in every epistle in Christ Jesus.
Ignatius to the Romans 4.3: 3 I am not enjoining you as Peter and Paul did. They were apostles, I am condemned; they were free, until now I have been a slave. But if I suffer, I will become a freed person who belongs to Jesus Christ, and I will rise up, free, in him. In the meantime I am learning to desire nothing while in chains.
Ignatius to the Romans 4.3: 3 I am not enjoining you as Peter and Paul did. They were apostles, I am condemned; they were free, until now I have been a slave. But if I suffer, I will become a freed person who belongs to Jesus Christ, and I will rise up, free, in him. In the meantime I am learning to desire nothing while in chains.
I have read arguments (I forget where) that the epistle to Diognetus depends upon several Pauline epistles, as well.
The dates of all of these texts are pretty open to argumentation.
Ben.
Re: Earliest attestation for Paul's letters?
Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:35 pm
I think some here have said they think the Ignatius texts were written mid 2nd C (Bernard?), and some think they were 3rd century or later (DC Hindley1; as part of then general persecution polemic literature). [I will try to find citations to insert here1; they may verify or contradict my assertions]
I agree with davidbrainerd that the epistle of Clement is likely to be "a back-dated Paul quote-fest designed to trick you into thinking orthodoxy always accepted Paul." It could well be mid 2nd C, at least, too.
eta -
1
I agree with davidbrainerd that the epistle of Clement is likely to be "a back-dated Paul quote-fest designed to trick you into thinking orthodoxy always accepted Paul." It could well be mid 2nd C, at least, too.
eta -
______________________________________MrMacSon wrote: ↑Tue Apr 19, 2016 9:25 pm Robert Price refers to the Ignatian corpus as "almost certainly a set of bogus pseudepigrapha, it serves as a prime example of the sort of pious fabrication that forms the martyrdom tradition" when reviewing Candida Moss's The Myth of Persecution: How Early Christians Invented a Story of Martyrdom HarperOne, 2013.
http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/ ... cution.htm
1
DCHindley wrote: ↑Tue Sep 22, 2015 5:56 pm
The Idolization of the Virginity of Mary, and the details that are otherwise found in accounts of martyrdoms that seem to date to the 3rd century (this is off the top of my thinly haired head), I'd date them to at least the age of Africanus (the one cited by Eusebius, not the one who wrote the work that commented on his brilliant, if he must say so, reconstruction of Homer), unless you are willing to posit a date of composition for the Protoevangelium of James in the 2nd century (I'm not). Candida Moss puts such romanticized martyrdom accounts to the 4th century or even later.
Re: Earliest attestation for Paul's letters?
Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:06 pm
Is it Robert M. Price who believes that Polycarp was the author of at least some of the Pauline letters? Do any of you share in this assessment?
Re: Earliest attestation for Paul's letters?
Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:41 pm
I don't have the ability to make that judgement. Not sure who does.
Re: Earliest attestation for Paul's letters?
Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:15 pm
In The Amazing Colossal Apostle (Dec, 2012; 580 pp) Price proposes that Paul is a composite of several historical figures, including Marcion (of Pontos), Stephen the Martyr, Simon the Sorcerer, and an iconoclastic evangelist who was named Paul. Price claims that Paul's letters were actually written and edited by other people, including Marcion, and Polycarp (of Smyrna).
Price thinks many of the canonical writings are an amalgam of biographical details derived from the other early Christian’s lives.
I think that could apply to aspects of the so-called Church Fathers, too. How real any of these people/characters are is, as Secret Stephan says, hard to know.
Re: Earliest attestation for Paul's letters?
Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:21 pm
Writings attributed to Ignatius do not attest any writings called Pauline Epistles. There is no historical corroboration for any person called Ignatius and no historical source to show an actual person named Ignatius wrote Epistles at the end of the 1st century.
The writings attributed to Ignatius appear to be forgeries or false attribution and most likely written no earlier than the late 2nd century.
It must be noted that the supposed writer called Ignatius wrote to the Ephesians implying that Paul wrote to the Ephesians however the so-called Epistle is a forgery or falsely attributed to Paul.
Ignatius to the Ephesians 12.1-2: 1 I know who I am and to whom I am writing. I am condemned, you have been shown mercy; I am in danger, you are secure. 2 You are a passageway for those slain for God; you are fellow initiates with Paul, the holy one who received a testimony and proved worthy of all fortune. When I attain to God, may I be found in his footsteps, this one who mentions you in every epistle in Christ Jesus.
The Epistles attributed to Paul and Ignatius appear to be part of massive forgeries to historicise the fiction called the Gospels [fables of Jesus and the disciples].
The writings attributed to Ignatius appear to be forgeries or false attribution and most likely written no earlier than the late 2nd century.
It must be noted that the supposed writer called Ignatius wrote to the Ephesians implying that Paul wrote to the Ephesians however the so-called Epistle is a forgery or falsely attributed to Paul.
Ignatius to the Ephesians 12.1-2: 1 I know who I am and to whom I am writing. I am condemned, you have been shown mercy; I am in danger, you are secure. 2 You are a passageway for those slain for God; you are fellow initiates with Paul, the holy one who received a testimony and proved worthy of all fortune. When I attain to God, may I be found in his footsteps, this one who mentions you in every epistle in Christ Jesus.
The Epistles attributed to Paul and Ignatius appear to be part of massive forgeries to historicise the fiction called the Gospels [fables of Jesus and the disciples].