Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

Does anyone disagree with these points:

1. the most likely date of an ur-gospel is immediately following the Jewish War
2. the crucifixion of Jesus is the most visually arresting image from the gospel and likely was connected to the widespread crucifixion of Jewish rebels in the lead up to the capture of Jerusalem in 70 CE
3. at least some early sources time the gospel narrative to 50 years before the fall of Jerusalem which coincided with a Jubilee
4. the identification of Jesus as a 'king of the Jews' on the sign above the cross is another subtle allusion to the Jewish rebellion which immediately preceded the publication (in whatever form) of the gospel

In short - Jesus is connected not to the rebels in a state of war but - oddly - a presage of the rebels in defeat, which is very puzzling. I've often been partial to the idea that Daniel's shiqqus meshomem was the crucifixion. In other words, there was a mythical or semi-mythical crucifixion on a jubilee 50 years before a massive number of crucifixions in the 'evangelical' - i.e. the Hebrew meaning associated with a sending out of messengers - lead up before the Jubilee.

There have been a number of theories which connect Christianity to the Jewish rebellion. But I think all of them fail because they fail to recognize the significance of the crucifixion. As the later 'in this sign you will conquer' tells us, the Cross (i.e. Jesus's cross) must have been understood as a manner in which the rebellion would be sublimated and ultimately would succeed and conquer. How did it conquer? It must have something to do with the substitution myth that is still preserved in Islam. The person who apparently dies on the Cross is not actually dead but is alive in a person with whom he switched places immediately preceding his crucifixion - in short, he (the rebel) continues the war through those into whom 'Christ' escaped and continue to escape into.

In short, I think the message of Christianity must have originally been, the war is not over yet - despite the circumstances of 70 CE. It was all part of the plan. The military option is now sublimated into a new form of spiritual warfare.

Secret Alias wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:17 am
In short - Jesus is connected not to the rebels in a state of war but - oddly - a presage of the rebels in defeat, which is very puzzling.

Beatiful words, thanks for this.

About the rest, I confess to be partial to the idea that a Roman crucifixion (with all the meaning so well explained by Secret Alias) was a reaction *also* against an earlier gospel (always written after the 70 CE) where the first irrational impulse (but after all the same religion is irrational) was to have Jesus crucified by "the Jews" in some time and place undefined on the earth. Mark would seem a partial apology of the old Israel, in this sense, against a so radical irrational condemnation of it all by the Earliest Gospel.

The Talmud preserved this Earliest Gospel (and did even some rash attempts to historicize it better) also against any possible rehabilitation of Jesus in sense pro-Jewish (therefore also against Mark). The Talmudist seems jealous in his insistence that "the Jews" condemned Jesus and only they had that honour.

I am assuming that 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 was interpolated just before the last news of the Fall of Temple. And it reflects that vulgar rumor (maybe it is even much calling it a "Gospel") that "the Jews" are the (conscious?) tools of the Archons of this Age.

Giuseppe, do you believe that Christianity pre-dates the fall of Jerusalem? Ditto Secret Alias?

Yes. I follow Rylands in seeing Galatians written in 100 CE while a good portion of Romans and 1 & 2 Corinthians written by Paul himself. But my opinion has no claim of authority, obviously.

Detering seems in my view a Christian crypto-apologist insofar he, like Van Manen, thinks that by putting all Paul in the second century the remote possibility of a historical Jesus is saved and only that counts for the pure faith.

With the usual dating of Paul, the claim that Jesus was crucified is older than the Jewish War.

Andrew Criddle

True but Paul's 'vision' isn't dependent on any historical connection with Jesus so - theoretically at least - the Pauline letters can be dated as late as the first reference to them.

Secret Alias wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:03 am ... theoretically, at least,- the Pauline letters can be dated as late as the first reference to them.

Yep, theoretically. It may just depend on the authenticity and reliability of the first reference/s.

The person who apparently dies on the Cross is not actually dead but is alive in a person with whom he switched places immediately preceding his crucifixion - in short, he (the rebel) continues the war through those into whom 'Christ' escaped and continue to escape into.

Cyrene was the place where the revolt broke out once Jerusalem was captured. Simon of Cyrene is the guy in whom the spirit of Christ lives after escaping the cross by abandoning the recipient Jesus to its destiny on the cross (adoptionism).

And when Cyrene was repressed by the Romans (following the same fate of Jerusalem), the spirit of Christ escapes to the sons of Simon: Alexander (all the Greece) and Rufus (Rome). i.e, al the known world.

Therefore, in the following order, the recipients of the spirit of Christ are:

the man Jesus from Nazaret
Simon of Cyrene
Alexander
Rufus


My congratulations, Secret Alias.

Giuseppe wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:22 am

The person who apparently dies on the Cross is not actually dead but is alive in a person with whom he switched places immediately preceding his crucifixion - in short, he (the rebel) continues the war through those into whom 'Christ' escaped and continue to escape into.

Cyrene was the place where the revolt broke out once Jerusalem was captured.

Insurrection of the Jews of Cyrene under Vespasian (73 AD, the First Roman-Jewish War), or the bigger uprising during the time of Trajan (117 AD, the Kitos War) ?? I think the Kitos War ended up in Galilee or near Jerusalem, too.

Giuseppe wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:22 am Simon of Cyrene is the guy in whom the spirit of Christ lives after escaping the cross by abandoning the recipient Jesus to its destiny on the cross (adoptionism).

And when Cyrene was repressed by the Romans (following the same fate of Jerusalem), the spirit of Christ escapes to the sons of Simon: Alexander (all the Greece) and Rufus (Rome). i.e, al the known world.

Therefore, in the following order, the recipients of the spirit of Christ are:

• the man Jesus from Nazaret
  
• Simon of Cyrene
  
• Alexander
  
• Rufus

My congratulations, Secret Alias.