Rules of Historical Reasoning

[iskander]

Gday all,

Not in the Pauline epistles (which repeatedly give a human father to Jesus with no mention of virgin birth)

Like this ?
"For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: by sending his own Son"

Or this ?
"If God is for us, who is against us? He who did not withhold his own Son"

Or this ?
"But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son"

Is God a human father Bernard ?


Kapyong

It is only religious talk.
God sent Jesus as his messenger . Mary was a virgin mother and Jesus ate food as any other man alive.

Surah Surah Al-Ma'idah
5:46 And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah
5:72 They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode
5:75 Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food

[iskander]

V46.PNG (29.71 KiB) Viewed 5751 times

Gday all,

Not in the Pauline epistles (which repeatedly give a human father to Jesus with no mention of virgin birth)

Like this ?
"For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: by sending his own Son"

Or this ?
"If God is for us, who is against us? He who did not withhold his own Son"

Or this ?
"But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son"

Is God a human father Bernard ?


Kapyong

It is only religious talk.
God sent Jesus as his messenger . Mary was a virgin mother and Jesus ate food as any other man alive.

Surah Surah Al-Ma'idah
5:46 And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah
5:72 They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode
5:75 Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food

[Kapyong]

Gday iskander

I don't think the Quran is a good source for Jesus, being half a millenium later.

Do you ?

Kapyong

[iskander]

Gday iskander

I don't think the Quran is a good source for Jesus, being half a millenium later.

Do you ?

Kapyong

Good day Kapyong
It shows the lasting influence of his teaching .
What are you looking for?

[Kapyong]

Gday,

Gday iskander
I don't think the Quran is a good source for Jesus, being half a millenium later.
Do you ?

Good day Kapyong
It shows the lasting influence of his teaching .
What are you looking for?

Ideally, we're looking for first century historical evidence,
or at least some good second century evidence.

But religious beliefs from about six centuries later are not evidence for Jesus.

Kapyong

[Kapyong]

Gday all,

Not in the Pauline epistles (which repeatedly give a human father to Jesus with no mention of virgin birth)

Paul wrote about a minimal Jesus (but also, for Paul, pre/post-existent as a heavenly deity) who, from "Israelites, ... whose [are] the fathers, and of whom [is] the Christ, according to the flesh ..." (Ro9:4-5 YLT) and "come of a woman, come under law" (Gal4:4 YLT) (as a descendant of (allegedly) Abraham (Gal3:16), Jesse (Ro15:12) & David (Ro1:3)), "found in appearance as a man" (Php2:8) "in the likeness of sinful flesh" (Ro8:3), "the one man, Jesus Christ" (Ro5:15) (who had brothers (1Co9:5), one of them called "James", whom Paul met (Gal1:19)), "humbled himself" (Php2:8) in "poverty" (2Co8:9) as "servant of the Jews" (Ro15:8) and "was crucified in weakness" (2Co13:4) in "Zion" (Ro9:31-33 & Ro11:26-27).

Hang on Bernard !
NOT ONE of your cites above has Paul claiming Jesus had a human father.
You are mis-representing the evidence - shame on you !

Paul said repeatedly that Jesus was the Son of God, but Paul never once claimed Jesus had a human father.

Bernard claims Paul repeatedly said that Jesus had a human father.


Kapyong

[neilgodfrey]

Actually, I do not agree with Neil's explanation.

My "explanation" was tongue in cheek, Bernard.

[iskander]

Gday,

Gday iskander
I don't think the Quran is a good source for Jesus, being half a millenium later.
Do you ?

Good day Kapyong
It shows the lasting influence of his teaching .
What are you looking for?

Ideally, we're looking for first century historical evidence,
or at least some good second century evidence.

But religious beliefs from about six centuries later are not evidence for Jesus.

Kapyong

Paul says Jesus was a Jew by birth .

Probability about Jesus (Christ) existence on earth
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2753&start=50

Romans 9:4-5, these verses explain the background of the New Testament : the story in the NT is a development of the religion of the Israelites who are sons of God and used to the presence of God in their midst as partner , overseer ,
maestro and Santa.


From this people by sexual intercourse [ katasarka , natural descent] a Messiah was born .This Messiah is a precious gift of the one who is above all.


NT verses chosen:
Romans 9:4They are descendants of Israel, chosen to be God's sons; theirs is the glory of the divine presence, theirs the covenants, the law, the temple worship, and the promises.

Romans 9:5 The patriarchs are theirs, and from them by natural descent came the Messiah. May God, supreme above all , be blessed forever! Amen.

What first century evidence would you expect to find?

[hakeem]

Paul says Jesus was a Jew by birth .

1." Paul" says Jesus was the firstborn of the dead.

Colossians 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

2. "Paul" says Jesus was the son of God and a woman.

Galatians 4:4
But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law

3." Paul" says Jesus was the Creator.

Colossians 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him.

4." Paul" says Jesus was from heaven.

1 Corinthians 15:47
The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

5. "Paul" says Jesus was a spirit.

1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit


6. "Paul's" Jesus was a non-historical resurrected being.

Romans 6:9
Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

7. "Paul's" Jesus was not a man.

Galatians 1:1
Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead.


8. "Paul" says he saw the resurrected non-historical Jesus.

1 Corinthians 15:8
And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

9. "Paul" says he received information from the resurrected Jesus.

1 Corinthians 11:23
For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread

10. "Paul" says without the resurrection there would be no Christian faith.

1 Corinthians 15:17
And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

"Paul's" Jesus was an invention and "Paul: was fabricated as a "witness" of the non-historical resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15:15
Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

[Paul E.]

The recent comments suggest an interesting issue, imo, about the value of evidence of beliefs as they relate to what "actually happened," for lack of a better term. It may be difficult to develop general rules for the use of beliefs in historical analysis, but they have evidentiary value imo. (This also relates to the arguments about what sources one should use. E.g., one person may think the Koran is useless about the historical/non-historical Jesus because it is too late, while another may think the use of succubus legends from centuries later is merely following the "rules." It is fascinating to see.)