Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

to Kapyong,

Paul said repeatedly that Jesus was the Son of God, but Paul never once claimed Jesus had a human father.

Bernard claims Paul repeatedly said that Jesus had a human father.

If someone is said to be a descendant of Abraham, Jesse, David and Israelites, that means he had a human father.

Cordially, Bernard

Bernard Muller wrote: ↑Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:03 am to Kapyong,

Paul said repeatedly that Jesus was the Son of God, but Paul never once claimed Jesus had a human father.

Bernard claims Paul repeatedly said that Jesus had a human father.

If someone is said to be a descendant of Abraham, Jesse, David and Israelites, that means he had a human father.

Cordially, Bernard

You seem to have forgotten that the very same NT states specifically the mother of Jesus was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Matthew 1:18
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Luke 1:35
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Galatians 4:4
But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

The father of Jesus was a non-historical Holy Ghost of God.

Jesus was never a product of history but always a product of belief.

to hakeem,

You seem to have forgotten that the very same NT states specifically the mother of Jesus was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Matthew 1:18
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Luke 1:35
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Galatians 4:4
But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

The father of Jesus was a non-historical Holy Ghost of God.

Jesus was never a product of history but always a product of belief.
Top

gLuke & gMatthew were written later than the 7 Pauline epistles (and NOT by Paul). Galatians 4:4 does not say a human father was not involved in the incarnation of the Son.

BTW, you seem to think, according to your arguments against my posts, that I am a fundamentalist Christian. I am not, not even a Christian and not a bit religious in any way. I am an atheist.

Cordially, Bernard

Bernard Muller wrote: ↑ If someone is said to be a descendant of Abraham, Jesse, David and Israelites, that means he had a human father.

Or it could mean that he was a product of the scriptures.

Bernard Muller wrote: ↑Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:47 am

gLuke & gMatthew were written later than the 7 Pauline epistles (and NOT by Paul). Galatians 4:4 does not say a human father was not involved in the incarnation of the Son.

Galatians 4.4 does not say Jesus had a human father---it says Jesus was the son of God and a woman.

Galatians begins by admitting the Pauline Jesus was not a man.

Galatians 1:1
Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead.

All Christian writings which make reference to the so-called Pauline Epistles admit the Pauline Jesus had no human father, was born of the Holy Ghost or was God Creator.

Ignatius, Ireneus, Tertullian, Origen, Hippolytus, Lactantius, Eusebius, Jerome, Clement of Alexandria, Chrysostom and others make references to the Epistles and all admit Jesus had no human father, was born of a Holy Ghost and a Virgin, the Logos or was God Creator.

Regardless of when you believe the NT books were written you will not be able to present any corroborative historical evidence that any book in the NT records historical events with respect to Jesus and Paul.

Bernard Muller wrote: ↑Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:47 am BTW, you seem to think, according to your arguments against my posts, that I am a fundamentalist Christian. I am not, not even a Christian and not a bit religious in any way. I am an atheist.

Cordially, Bernard

I don't understand why you would believe that I think you are a fundamentalists.

All I know is that your arguments are hopelessly flawed.

to hakeem,

Galatians 4.4 does not say Jesus had a human father---it says Jesus was the son of God and a woman.

Galatians 4:4 does not say Jesus did not have a human father for his incarnation from a heavenly Son of God.

Galatians begins by admitting the Pauline Jesus was not a man.
Galatians 1:1
Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead.

Galatians 1:1 does not say that. Paul wanted to say he was an apostle not chosen/appointed by men. Instead he said he was selected by (then again heavenly) Jesus.

All Christian writings which make reference to the so-called Pauline Epistles admit the Pauline Jesus had no human father, was born of the Holy Ghost or was God Creator.

What are these Christian writings which make reference to the so-called Pauline Epistles?
Anyway, that comes later, so that does not reflect on Paul. Furthermore later Christian writers had to take in account the story of the divine conception in gLuke & gMatthew.
Even so, "Luke" & "Matthew" "admitted" Jesus had a human father (the genealogies).
Furthermore, according to all the gospels and Paul's epistles, Jesus had also brothers.
According to gMark & gMatthew, Jesus had also sisters.

Ignatius, Ireneus, Tertullian, Origen, Hippolytus, Lactantius, Eusebius, Jerome, Clement of Alexandria, Chrysostom and others make references to the Epistles and all admit Jesus had no human father, was born of a Holy Ghost and a Virgin, the Logos or was God Creator.

Again these Christian writers had to take in account what was written in the gospels & 'Hebrews'.

Regardless of when you believe the NT books were written you will not be able to present any corroborative historical evidence that any book in the NT records historical events with respect to Jesus and Paul.

There are corroborative evidence about Jesus/Christ in Tacitus & Josephus' works (Ant. 20).
Of course, with Jesus having been very "minimal", we should not expect a lot of corroborative evidence, and even less for Paul, a sectarian preacher with a small following.
Little (for Jesus) or lack (for Paul) of corroboration does not mean Jesus or Paul did not exist.

Cordially, Bernard.

Bernard Muller wrote: ↑Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:03 am If someone is said to be a descendant of Abraham, Jesse, David and Israelites, that means he had a human father.

If 'someone' is said to be a descendent of those biblical characters, it is likely that 'someone' is a biblical or mythical character being elevated to deity status.

If 'someone' is said to be a descendent of those biblical characters, it is likely that 'someone' is a biblical or mythical character being elevated to deity status.

Abraham, Jesse, David or Israelites were not considered by Paul to have been only biblical and certainly not non-existing beings mythical characters, but rather earthly humans.

Cordially, Bernard

Gday,

Kapyong wrote:Paul said repeatedly that Jesus was the Son of God, but Paul never once claimed Jesus had a human father.
Bernard claims Paul repeatedly said that Jesus had a human father.

Bernard Muller wrote: ↑Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:03 am If someone is said to be a descendant of Abraham, Jesse, David and Israelites, that means he had a human father.
Cordially, Bernard

No it doesn't.
That is merely your belief - based on ignoring half the data and interpreting what's left according to your own assumptions.

Kapyong

Gday all,

iskander wrote: ↑Sat Sep 30, 2017 1:49 am Paul says Jesus was a Jew by birth .

So what ?!
You seem (like Bernard and others) to have made a faulty and unspoken assumption that a birth can only happen on earth.
Which is obviously wrong.

Anything can happen in heaven - all sorts of actions and beings and objects are described in heaven. Of course a birth can happen in heaven.

Do you believe it is impossible for Paul to believe in a heavenly birth ?
If so, why ?

What about the woman in Revelation who gives birth among the stars with a dragon risk ?
Was she historical ?

Paul repeatedly describes Jesus Christ in heavenly terms, but he NEVER describes a place, or date, or time, or people's names connected to Jesus.

Paul's Jesus Christ is not a historical being.


Kapyong