Who existed ? When ? Where ?

[andrewcriddle]

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1806&p=41271&hilit=robin#p41271

Why did Marcion adopt the gospel of Luke?
Re: Why did Marcion adopt the gospel of Luke?
Robin Lane Fox dates the escape of Paul to 36/37 AD.
In 36/7 it is entirely credible to find Aretas’s agents active so far north in Damascus: Aretas had won a great victory over Herod Antipas in the wake of the divorce scandal and had overrun bits of the tetrarchy of Philip, Herod’s brother, who had died in 33/4 .Not until early 37 did Antipas manage to mobilize Roman support against the Petran king and defeat him.


Paul’s dangers in Damascus fit beautifully into the interval while Aretas’s troops could still make the most of their northern gains.

The Unauthorized version : truth and fiction the Bible
Robin Lane Fox
Penguin Books, 1991, page 305
ISBN 9780141022963

Unfortunately there is no evidence of Aretas IV having made any gains in the north, especially Damascus, and every good reason to expect that he did not. The Romans controlled that area at that time and Damascus was one of their cities. They would have responded with force had Aretas IV attacked and held those areas.

Actually, Paul's three year stay in Damascus fits in much better when Aretas III occupied Damascus from 85-72 BCE and then later from 69-63 BCE with Tigranes II occupying Damascus for three years from 72-69 BCE.

Among the (several) problems with dating Paul this early:
Paul preached and ministered in Corinth which was largely a ruin between 146 BCE and 44 BCE

Andrew Criddle

[Jax]

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1806&p=41271&hilit=robin#p41271

Why did Marcion adopt the gospel of Luke?
Re: Why did Marcion adopt the gospel of Luke?
Robin Lane Fox dates the escape of Paul to 36/37 AD.
In 36/7 it is entirely credible to find Aretas’s agents active so far north in Damascus: Aretas had won a great victory over Herod Antipas in the wake of the divorce scandal and had overrun bits of the tetrarchy of Philip, Herod’s brother, who had died in 33/4 .Not until early 37 did Antipas manage to mobilize Roman support against the Petran king and defeat him.


Paul’s dangers in Damascus fit beautifully into the interval while Aretas’s troops could still make the most of their northern gains.

The Unauthorized version : truth and fiction the Bible
Robin Lane Fox
Penguin Books, 1991, page 305
ISBN 9780141022963

Unfortunately there is no evidence of Aretas IV having made any gains in the north, especially Damascus, and every good reason to expect that he did not. The Romans controlled that area at that time and Damascus was one of their cities. They would have responded with force had Aretas IV attacked and held those areas.

Actually, Paul's three year stay in Damascus fits in much better when Aretas III occupied Damascus from 85-72 BCE and then later from 69-63 BCE with Tigranes II occupying Damascus for three years from 72-69 BCE.

Among the (several) problems with dating Paul this early:
Paul preached and ministered in Corinth which was largely a ruin between 146 BCE and 44 BCE

Andrew Criddle

Corinth was however a Roman military veteran colony after 44 BCE as was Philippi after Actium. Aside from these two Roman Veteran colonies of Julius Caesar and Augustus Caesar Paul writes to Thessalonica (the main Roman port to the Via Egnatia and close to Philippi, about 33 mi), Rome, and a group called The Galatians. He also makes quite a few comments invoking military imagery in his letters and refers to others as "fellow soldiers". Add to this the fact that the Galatians were a fighting group from the area of Galatia that served in every major conflict of the Roman civil wars in Greece and Macedonia during the 1st century BCE and you begin to understand why I feel that Paul may have been part of these 1st century BCE wars. It would help explain what he was doing in Greece and Macedonia (not to mention Illyricum), why he is writing to fellow soldiers, and why he would be going to Iberia via Rome (Iberia being the last place in need of pacification by Augustus after the civil wars and the site of many veteran colonies of Julius and Augustus).

In an earlier post I mentioned that Paul was, by tradition, said to have been short (Paulos=nickname "shorty"?) but also bow legged (Roman axillary calvary perhaps?).

Just spitballing some numbers: if Paul was in his 20's when he left Damascus in 69 BCE he would have been in his 30's in 53 BCE at the Battle of Carrhae, late 30's-early 40's during the Battle of Dyrrhachium in Illyricum (48 BCE), 40's during the Liberators war in 43-42 BCE and late 50's early 60's for the Battle of Actium (31 BCE). Not out of the realm of possibility, though getting a little long in the tooth for Actium.

If not an interpolation https://depts.drew.edu/jhc/rp1cor15.html who are these more than five hundred brothers (sisters not being in the original Greek) that Paul refers to at 1 Corithians 15:6? https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... rsion=NRSV A Roman axillary unit being thought to be usually 500 or more soldiers during the 1st century BCE.

This is all pure speculation of course, but interesting to consider.

[Jax]

Gday,

I am starting over with Paul myself. At this point he is my primary focus.
Any help, or insight, that I can give you on this I will happily supply.
Jax

I'm sure anything you can share here about Paul will be welcome

Kapyong

Hi Kapyong, I have started a new thread on Paul to not derail this thread viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3487

[andrewcriddle]

........................................

Corinth was however a Roman military veteran colony after 44 BCE as was Philippi after Actium. Aside from these two Roman Veteran colonies of Julius Caesar and Augustus Caesar Paul writes to Thessalonica (the main Roman port to the Via Egnatia and close to Philippi, about 33 mi), Rome, and a group called The Galatians. He also makes quite a few comments invoking military imagery in his letters and refers to others as "fellow soldiers". Add to this the fact that the Galatians were a fighting group from the area of Galatia that served in every major conflict of the Roman civil wars in Greece and Macedonia during the 1st century BCE and you begin to understand why I feel that Paul may have been part of these 1st century BCE wars. It would help explain what he was doing in Greece and Macedonia (not to mention Illyricum), why he is writing to fellow soldiers, and why he would be going to Iberia via Rome (Iberia being the last place in need of pacification by Augustus after the civil wars and the site of many veteran colonies of Julius and Augustus).

In an earlier post I mentioned that Paul was, by tradition, said to have been short (Paulos=nickname "shorty"?) but also bow legged (Roman axillary calvary perhaps?).

Just spitballing some numbers: if Paul was in his 20's when he left Damascus in 69 BCE he would have been in his 30's in 53 BCE at the Battle of Carrhae, late 30's-early 40's during the Battle of Dyrrhachium in Illyricum (48 BCE), 40's during the Liberators war in 43-42 BCE and late 50's early 60's for the Battle of Actium (31 BCE). Not out of the realm of possibility, though getting a little long in the tooth for Actium.

If not an interpolation https://depts.drew.edu/jhc/rp1cor15.html who are these more than five hundred brothers (sisters not being in the original Greek) that Paul refers to at 1 Corithians 15:6? https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... rsion=NRSV A Roman axillary unit being thought to be usually 500 or more soldiers during the 1st century BCE.

This is all pure speculation of course, but interesting to consider.

From http://bcharchive.org/2/thearchives/showthread3a87.html

It is probably not just the question of when Corinth was refounded.

The way Paul in his epistles to Corinth refers to Achaia and Macedonia as distinct regions, with Corinth a prominent place in Achaia, (see for example 2 Corinthians 9:1-2), is more likely if it is written after 27 BCE when Augustus appears to have split Southern Greece from Macedonian administrative control to establish or re-establish the province of Achaia with the refounded Corinth as its capital.

Andrew Criddle

[Jax]

........................................

Corinth was however a Roman military veteran colony after 44 BCE as was Philippi after Actium. Aside from these two Roman Veteran colonies of Julius Caesar and Augustus Caesar Paul writes to Thessalonica (the main Roman port to the Via Egnatia and close to Philippi, about 33 mi), Rome, and a group called The Galatians. He also makes quite a few comments invoking military imagery in his letters and refers to others as "fellow soldiers". Add to this the fact that the Galatians were a fighting group from the area of Galatia that served in every major conflict of the Roman civil wars in Greece and Macedonia during the 1st century BCE and you begin to understand why I feel that Paul may have been part of these 1st century BCE wars. It would help explain what he was doing in Greece and Macedonia (not to mention Illyricum), why he is writing to fellow soldiers, and why he would be going to Iberia via Rome (Iberia being the last place in need of pacification by Augustus after the civil wars and the site of many veteran colonies of Julius and Augustus).

In an earlier post I mentioned that Paul was, by tradition, said to have been short (Paulos=nickname "shorty"?) but also bow legged (Roman axillary calvary perhaps?).

Just spitballing some numbers: if Paul was in his 20's when he left Damascus in 69 BCE he would have been in his 30's in 53 BCE at the Battle of Carrhae, late 30's-early 40's during the Battle of Dyrrhachium in Illyricum (48 BCE), 40's during the Liberators war in 43-42 BCE and late 50's early 60's for the Battle of Actium (31 BCE). Not out of the realm of possibility, though getting a little long in the tooth for Actium.

If not an interpolation https://depts.drew.edu/jhc/rp1cor15.html who are these more than five hundred brothers (sisters not being in the original Greek) that Paul refers to at 1 Corithians 15:6? https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... rsion=NRSV A Roman axillary unit being thought to be usually 500 or more soldiers during the 1st century BCE.

This is all pure speculation of course, but interesting to consider.

From http://bcharchive.org/2/thearchives/showthread3a87.html

It is probably not just the question of when Corinth was refounded.

The way Paul in his epistles to Corinth refers to Achaia and Macedonia as distinct regions, with Corinth a prominent place in Achaia, (see for example 2 Corinthians 9:1-2), is more likely if it is written after 27 BCE when Augustus appears to have split Southern Greece from Macedonian administrative control to establish or re-establish the province of Achaia with the refounded Corinth as its capital.

Andrew Criddle

Thanks for the thread link.

Jax

[Jax]

........................................

Corinth was however a Roman military veteran colony after 44 BCE as was Philippi after Actium. Aside from these two Roman Veteran colonies of Julius Caesar and Augustus Caesar Paul writes to Thessalonica (the main Roman port to the Via Egnatia and close to Philippi, about 33 mi), Rome, and a group called The Galatians. He also makes quite a few comments invoking military imagery in his letters and refers to others as "fellow soldiers". Add to this the fact that the Galatians were a fighting group from the area of Galatia that served in every major conflict of the Roman civil wars in Greece and Macedonia during the 1st century BCE and you begin to understand why I feel that Paul may have been part of these 1st century BCE wars. It would help explain what he was doing in Greece and Macedonia (not to mention Illyricum), why he is writing to fellow soldiers, and why he would be going to Iberia via Rome (Iberia being the last place in need of pacification by Augustus after the civil wars and the site of many veteran colonies of Julius and Augustus).

In an earlier post I mentioned that Paul was, by tradition, said to have been short (Paulos=nickname "shorty"?) but also bow legged (Roman axillary calvary perhaps?).

Just spitballing some numbers: if Paul was in his 20's when he left Damascus in 69 BCE he would have been in his 30's in 53 BCE at the Battle of Carrhae, late 30's-early 40's during the Battle of Dyrrhachium in Illyricum (48 BCE), 40's during the Liberators war in 43-42 BCE and late 50's early 60's for the Battle of Actium (31 BCE). Not out of the realm of possibility, though getting a little long in the tooth for Actium.

If not an interpolation https://depts.drew.edu/jhc/rp1cor15.html who are these more than five hundred brothers (sisters not being in the original Greek) that Paul refers to at 1 Corithians 15:6? https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... rsion=NRSV A Roman axillary unit being thought to be usually 500 or more soldiers during the 1st century BCE.

This is all pure speculation of course, but interesting to consider.

From http://bcharchive.org/2/thearchives/showthread3a87.html

It is probably not just the question of when Corinth was refounded.

The way Paul in his epistles to Corinth refers to Achaia and Macedonia as distinct regions, with Corinth a prominent place in Achaia, (see for example 2 Corinthians 9:1-2), is more likely if it is written after 27 BCE when Augustus appears to have split Southern Greece from Macedonian administrative control to establish or re-establish the province of Achaia with the refounded Corinth as its capital.

Andrew Criddle

Thanks for the thread link.

Jax

Update. Really enjoying the thread you provided. Are there more of these?

Thanks.

Jax

[andrewcriddle]

Update. Really enjoying the thread you provided. Are there more of these?

Thanks.

Jax

Go to http://bcharchive.org/ enter terms of interest in the search box and enjoy.

Andrew Criddle

[perseusomega9]

Keeps saying site can't be reached when I try a search term

[Jax]

........................................

Corinth was however a Roman military veteran colony after 44 BCE as was Philippi after Actium. Aside from these two Roman Veteran colonies of Julius Caesar and Augustus Caesar Paul writes to Thessalonica (the main Roman port to the Via Egnatia and close to Philippi, about 33 mi), Rome, and a group called The Galatians. He also makes quite a few comments invoking military imagery in his letters and refers to others as "fellow soldiers". Add to this the fact that the Galatians were a fighting group from the area of Galatia that served in every major conflict of the Roman civil wars in Greece and Macedonia during the 1st century BCE and you begin to understand why I feel that Paul may have been part of these 1st century BCE wars. It would help explain what he was doing in Greece and Macedonia (not to mention Illyricum), why he is writing to fellow soldiers, and why he would be going to Iberia via Rome (Iberia being the last place in need of pacification by Augustus after the civil wars and the site of many veteran colonies of Julius and Augustus).

In an earlier post I mentioned that Paul was, by tradition, said to have been short (Paulos=nickname "shorty"?) but also bow legged (Roman axillary calvary perhaps?).

Just spitballing some numbers: if Paul was in his 20's when he left Damascus in 69 BCE he would have been in his 30's in 53 BCE at the Battle of Carrhae, late 30's-early 40's during the Battle of Dyrrhachium in Illyricum (48 BCE), 40's during the Liberators war in 43-42 BCE and late 50's early 60's for the Battle of Actium (31 BCE). Not out of the realm of possibility, though getting a little long in the tooth for Actium.

If not an interpolation https://depts.drew.edu/jhc/rp1cor15.html who are these more than five hundred brothers (sisters not being in the original Greek) that Paul refers to at 1 Corithians 15:6? https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... rsion=NRSV A Roman axillary unit being thought to be usually 500 or more soldiers during the 1st century BCE.

This is all pure speculation of course, but interesting to consider.

From http://bcharchive.org/2/thearchives/showthread3a87.html

It is probably not just the question of when Corinth was refounded.

The way Paul in his epistles to Corinth refers to Achaia and Macedonia as distinct regions, with Corinth a prominent place in Achaia, (see for example 2 Corinthians 9:1-2), is more likely if it is written after 27 BCE when Augustus appears to have split Southern Greece from Macedonian administrative control to establish or re-establish the province of Achaia with the refounded Corinth as its capital.

Andrew Criddle

Thanks for the thread link.

Jax

Update. Really enjoying the thread you provided. Are there more of these?

Thanks.

Jax

OK. Finally finished that thread. Some really good content in there, very thought provoking and educational.

It still seems to me that the King Aretas passage in 2 Corinthians, unless a later addition, is better understood as a reference to Aretas III. However. I do feel that you have some very valid arguments for some of the letters of Paul being no earlier than the late first century BCE, post Actium. I will point out however that the militaristic language of Paul has a better chance of being associated with someone involved in the wars in Greece, Macedonia and Asia minor during the 1st century BCE rather than in a post Pax Romana period of the same areas in the 1st century CE. Who are these fellow soldiers that he writes to and about?
With the bulk of his letters going to areas that are Roman military veteran colonies of the wars of Julius and Augustus Caesar. I find this very telling.

Thank you again for the thread link, any more of this material is very welcome.

Jax

[andrewcriddle]

Try

http://bcharchive.org/2/thearchives/sho ... l?t=323219

Andrew Criddle