Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:53 am**

Even if I doubt about the originality of the entire episode of baptism and fast in wilderness, I note a curious fact: John in the wilderness talks as one inspired by God himself. He is a prophet who talks "in name of God" (Creator).

While, in the wilderness, Jesus is tempted by Satan. The voice listened by Jesus in the wilderness is the voice of Satan.

Only after the imprisonement of John the Baptist, Jesus is "freed" from the temptation by Satan, by coming from the wilderness.

Is possible to read an antithesis between Jesus and John, here?

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:02 am**

Said in other terms, was the "voice of one who cries in the wilderness" (=John) the tempter of Jesus in the wilderness?

Jesus was tempted by John/Satan insofar he had to conform to the model of Christ promised by John (surely not a pauline view of the Christ).

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:14 am**

We see that Jesus goes against John insofar he appears not in a strictly sequential order (before John enters, then John exits, then Jesus enters):

Mark 1New International Version (NIV)

John the Baptist Prepares the Way
1 The beginning of the good news about Jesus the Messiah,the Son of God,2 as it is written in Isaiah the prophet:

“I will send my messenger ahead of you,
who will prepare your way”—
3 “a voice of one calling in the wilderness,
‘Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for him.’”
4 And so John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5 The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River. 6 John wore clothing made of camel’s hair, with a leather belt around his waist, and he ate locusts and wild honey. 7 And this was his message: “After me comes the one more powerful than I, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. 8 I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

9 At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10 Just as Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. 11 And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”

12 At once the Spirit sent him out into the wilderness, 13 and he was in the wilderness forty days, being tempted by Satan. He was with the wild animals, and angels attended him.

14 After John was put in prison, Jesus went into Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God. 15 “The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!”

Note another two differences between John and Jesus: in the wilderness John is served by sinner people and he is dressed as a beast.
While in the wilderness Jesus is served by angels and he was with the beasts.

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:25 am**

Further difference between John and Jesus:

Who sends John in the wilderness is the God Creator who talks via Isaiah.

Who sends Jesus in the wilderness is the "Spirit" of the Christ.

Is there a vivid contrast between the letter and the spirit? Between the Christ of the Pillars and the Christ of Paul? Between Law and Grace? Between the god of the Jews and the alien god of the gnosis?

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:48 am**

It seems that the man Jesus in Mark is the antithesis of the man John just as the spiritual Christ (possessing the man Jesus) is the antithesis of the god creator (possessing the man John).

In other words, the prophecy of John was never realized in Mark. Deliberately. This speaks of marcionite influence. on Mark.

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2017 12:01 pm**

The letter kills, the spirit gives life (Paul).

John the Baptist was killed by Herod and wasn't risen. His killer wasn't really Herod. His killer wasn't really the wife of Herod. His killer was the same his strict observance of the Law, that moved irrationally John against the Herodian court. The Law killed John.

Jesus was killed by the Jews. And Jesus was risen. The spiritual Christ vindicated the man Jesus.

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:25 pm**

John the Baptist	Jesus
He is proclaimed by the scriptures.	He is proclaimed by a voice from heaven
He is sent in the Wilderness by the Creator God	He is sent in the Wilderness by the Spirit of Christ
He is served by sinners	He is served by angels
He is reduced to a beast	He is with the beasts
He is a “a voice of one calling in the wilderness”	He is silent, tempted by Satan
He proclaims one who comes ''after him''.	Jesus doesn't appear really ''after him'', but with him
He is imprisoned, and is put to silence.	Jesus is not more silent: he proclaims the 'Kingdom of God''

Posted: **Sun Oct 22, 2017 5:43 am**

Giuseppe, are you trying to get behind the extant texts, back to a layer in which John and Jesus were at odds? Because in our extant Mark, that opposition does not seem possible.

Posted: **Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:42 am**

Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2017 5:43 am Giuseppe, are you trying to get behind the extant texts, back to a layer in which John and Jesus were at odds?

Yes. As you see, I am assuming, in the operation, a minor possible number of interpolations in Mark (specifically I am assuming that Mark 1, as we have it, is original).

Because in our extant Mark, that opposition does not seem possible.

Can I ask you simply... ...why?

Why is John seen always as a faithful precursor of Jesus in Mark?

The only ''heretical'' thing listened by me about JtB in Mark is that he doesn't see the dove descending on Jesus. Only that.

Beyond that, if my antitheses are revealing, then the real opposition is not so much between the man Jesus and the man John: afterall, the man Jesus was only one of many who wanted to receive baptism by John, one of the his 'servants'.

My point is that the Spirit who possessed Jesus was really opposed to the God who sent John in the wilderness via Isaiah. That Spirit is really - riotously - invisible for John, not the man Jesus, his mere passive recipient.

This is equivalent to a confutation of the prophecy of John insofar the latter predicted the coming of a man greater than him, not of a Spirit possessing a man.

If John is a false prophet, then also the unique explicit quotation, in Mark, of the scriptures (Mark 1:2-3), is a false prophecy. By a false god.

Can you give me shortly a list of reasons to consider:

1) ''Mark'' (author) as not a Gnostic (one who hates the creator god),
2) ''Mark'' (author) as one who introduces a perfect continuity and identical intention between John the Baptist and Jesus (Beyond if the baptism of Jesus is historical or not)
3) ''Mark'' (author) as one who, having to opt which field to join (Marcionites or proto-catholics), would have opted for proto-catholics against Marcion.

???

Or, in alternative, where do you see continuity and/or discontinuity between John and Jesus?

The question is open to all the readers, obviously.

Posted: **Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:48 am**

Giuseppe wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:42 am
Because in our extant Mark, that opposition does not seem possible.
Can I ask you simply... ...why?

Because Mark seems to set up John and Jesus as another Elijah and Elisha.

Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

John and Jesus in the wilderness: vox dei versus vox satanae?

John and Jesus in the wilderness: vox dei versus vox satanae?

Re: John and Jesus in the wilderness: vox dei versus vox satanae?

Re: John and Jesus in the wilderness: vox dei versus vox satanae?

Re: John and Jesus in the wilderness: vox dei versus vox satanae?

Re: John and Jesus in the wilderness: vox dei versus vox satanae?

Re: John and Jesus in the wilderness: vox dei versus vox satanae?

Re: John and Jesus in the wilderness: vox dei versus vox satanae?

Re: John and Jesus in the wilderness: vox dei versus vox satanae?

Re: John and Jesus in the wilderness: vox dei versus vox satanae?

Re: John and Jesus in the wilderness: vox dei versus vox satanae?