Thoughts on Maurice Casey's new book

[stevencarrwork]

Casey is not only a profound New Testament scholar, but also a learned medical doctor able to diagnose the cause of illnesses of people who (allegedly) lived 2000 years ago. Is there no end to this man's abilities?

Mind you, Casey explains 'I do not normally see fit to discuss the social background of scholars, whether distinguished or otherwise. but in this case it is important....'

Casey is very reluctant to indulge in ad hominems, but sometimes a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do, however personally unpleasant his duty is.

And don't forget, Casey know Aramaic. So he must be right, and others must be wrong because they don't know Aramaic. Jesus spoke Aramaic, you know....

[DCHindley]

Hmmm,

My lucid dreams seem to be about alien spiders who monitor me as I sleep. They hang over my head or at the head of my bed. One time I opened my eyes to see one scurrying across my sleeping wife's face, and she flinched! That may have been a real spider, 'though I doubt it was "alien."

I once threw a shoe at one that I thought was on the wall near the foot of the bed, and thought I had squished it.

It was a disappointment to realize, upon close and intense inspection, that there was no spider. It all seemed so dang real!

Now at that time I was under a great deal of stress (job, finances, the usual). Many times I was even conscious that I was in a dream state, but couldn't also help marveling just how real it all seemed. Of course, most folks who open their eyes in the middle of the night can't see anything at all because it is pitch black, so the fact that I thought I could "see" them clear as day was what probably tipped me off. So I just went with the flow ... talk about suspending disbelief!

DCH

[stevencarrwork]

You don't , by any chance, develop the ability to read Aramaic wax tablets nobody has ever seen during one of your lucid dreams, do you?

[DCHindley]

You don't , by any chance, develop the ability to read Aramaic wax tablets nobody has ever seen during one of your lucid dreams, do you?

Are you directing this rhetorical question to me, Peter, or someone else? There used to be this "independent scholar" who posted on Crosstalk2 who believed that the original gospels were relayed to humans via space aliens, and in Aramaic! How he knew these things I no longer remember ...

DCH

[hjalti]

Hmmm,

My lucid dreams seem to be about alien spiders who monitor me as I sleep. They hang over my head or at the head of my bed. One time I opened my eyes to see one scurrying across my sleeping wife's face, and she flinched! That may have been a real spider, 'though I doubt it was "alien."

I once threw a shoe at one that I thought was on the wall near the foot of the bed, and thought I had squished it.

It was a disappointment to realize, upon close and intense inspection, that there was no spider. It all seemed so dang real!

Now at that time I was under a great deal of stress (job, finances, the usual). Many times I was even conscious that I was in a dream state, but couldn't also help marveling just how real it all seemed. Of course, most folks who open their eyes in the middle of the night can't see anything at all because it is pitch black, so the fact that I thought I could "see" them clear as day was what probably tipped me off. So I just went with the flow ... talk about suspending disbelief!

DCH

Hmmm....that doesn't sound like lucid dreaming. Lucid dreaming is when you are sleeping and actually dreaming and become aware of it.

What you describe sounds more like hypnagogic hallucinations, i.e. you are falling asleep (or maybe waking up, then it's "hypnopompic") and the brain has started to "make up stuff", and you wrongly believe that the stuff you see is real (i.e. hallucinate).

I've experienced hypnogocic hallucinations during sleep paralysis: I've twice seen an "evil being" (that my half-asleep, atheistic, X-files-loving brain interpreted as an alien) standing in front of my bed when I was falling asleep. Your imaginary spiders might be the same thing (although you were clearly not paralized if you are throwing stuff at them)

[TedM]

chapter 5 is a relatively short chapter arguing that the infrequency of references to the Historical Jesus in Paul and other epistles does not imply that the authors did not believe in a historical figure. Generally convincing IMO. Good discussion of how Hebrews 5:7-9 clearly refers to Jesus' prayer in Gethsemane. Explains how it is wildly unlikely that Golgotha would have been a Christian place of pilgrimage while still in use as a place of execution.

More to come.

Andrew Criddle

Does he explain how any witness could have KNOWN about the prayer at Gethsemane? Does he make any argument against the possibility of Mark using Hebrews? This seems kind of weak to me. Hebrews doesn't actually say anything about Gethsemane, just about a prayer which could not have been derived (in either case, Mark or Hebrews) from history, even if Jesus existed.

Direct usage of Mark by Hebrews or vice-versa here is unlikely given the lack of detailed verbal correspondences.

Andrew Criddle

First, thanks Andrew for your chapter reviews. Re the prayer in Hebrews, the lack of verbal correspondences does suggest that some kind of prayer either really happened or was expected of the Messiah. Is there a Psalms or some other passage that might have caused such an expectation, thus weakening the argument Casey gives?

[TedM]

I have to admit, I don't get this 'controversy' about whether Jesus existed or didn't exist. .....
If we all take a deep breath isn't a lot of this like having heated debate over whether Jessica Alba is a good lay? Or perhaps in less provocative terms, fighting over the shadow of an ass. I mean, we're not going to find out. So why the excitability?

Really?

Jesus is the most influential religious figure of all time. His influence is a direct consequence of belief that he was God's Son who took on HUMAN FLESH in order to save souls that couldn't save themselves. Belief in his HUMANITY is essential to the faith, which has caused much suffering, sacrifice, joy, and hope among so many.

This is why it is such an critical issue to CHRISTIANS. For non-Christians who have grown up in a Christian-oriented culture, one would have to be quite aloof -- perhaps insensitive or lacking in intellectual curiousity -- to not have an interest. I image to those who have grown up in non-Christian cultures it is less important, except perhaps to the degree that they feel that Christianity is competitive to their own religions.

As for the issue of 'why be excited about something we'll never know for sure or be able to prove', why even be human with wishes, desires, curiosities, etc..? Add to that the very loud proclamations of the establishment in favor of a historical Jesus, and you have a situation where those who believe he didn't live are viewed as wacko conspiracy theorists. After all it IS a FRINGE position, and it is especially interesting on a psychological level (and many people have such an interest) that the primary proponents of this 'wacko' position are athiests and agnostics--the VERY GROUP that opposes Christianity most vocally on so many other levels...People have a fascination with wackos. Not saying that is an accurate perception in this case at all..just trying to answer your questions..

[TedM]

Yes, personal information that was/is totally unnecessary for any scholarly debate on JC. He has done the same with other people as well.......including Neil Godfrey - who is "apparently Australian". Casey has gone after the man instead of playing the ball.....He does not like the message so seeks to take down the messengers....

Nah..not necessarily. It sounded to me that in the case of Neil his point was to back up his psychological evaluation of the typical mythicist--ie someone with a fascination with the subject matter and a disdain for those in academia, or something along those lines. Sounds to me to fit S. Carr quite accurately..but how else is he to illustrate a point other than to provide some examples? The conclusion I would make that I assume he made in the book is that 'reason' and 'logic' is possibly being affected by such cynicism and strong emotion. Psychology IS part of the debate, Maryhelena.. See my answer to Stephan.

p.s. don't take these comments too personally or seriously..just my take on what was his motivation...

[TedM]

This is a Strawman as the position of most of the so-called "Mythicists" MC hammers are merely skeptical about the existence of Jesus. Specifically they assert/question whether the historical evidence for Jesus is as good as commonly presented or thought. Burn strawman, burn! So he has impeached his credibility in the first sentence. Congratulations.

I don't think so Joe. The mythicist position is more than 'mere' skepticism. The mythicist position is that Jesus never existed. Of course there are variations in level of support, etc.. but it is perfectly clear that the 'typical' mythicist 'skeptic' has formed a conclusion that in fact Jesus did not exist, and that there are many really great arguments for that position. SO, I don't really get where you are coming from here. It's a book about mythicism, not agnosticism..

[Peter Kirby]

but it is perfectly clear that the 'typical' mythicist 'skeptic' has formed a conclusion that in fact Jesus did not exist

That's not really clear.