Thoughts on Maurice Casey's new book

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
bcedaifu
Posts: 197
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2014 10:40 am

Re: Thoughts on Maurice Casey's new book

Post by bcedaifu »

stephan huller wrote:You can't posit a 'Jewish-Christianity' and then ignore what could and wouldn't be possible within a Jewish or even Samaritan community. Jews and Samaritans would have thought it only appropriate for a second Torah to have been written in Hebrew. The idea of a holy Aramaic text is so bonkers, it ignores the established Jewish attitude towards the Aramaic sections of Daniel. They aren't treated as scripture.
Obviously, I am not writing for anyone other than myself, here. I don't understand your logic, at all.

The question is not whether or not there was a gospel (of Matthew, or anyone else) written in Hebrew. No one is arguing, so far as I can determine, that the "holy scripture" would have been written in Aramaic. The question concerns the lingua franca of the population of Palestine, not the language employed in writing the Torah.

Maurice Casey, apparently (I have not read his book), claims that one or more of the original gospels had been written in Aramaic. We possess material from the Elephantine caves, with lots of written Aramaic, produced by Jews, living in Egypt, storing documents under the auspices of the local synagogue.

Then we have your link, to an "expert", who claims that the lingua franca of Palestine was Greek, and that the Sanhedrin inscribed their tombs in Greek, rather than Hebrew. I challenged that assertion, and you ignored my rejoinder....why?

I think you need to address the issues raised in the thread, rather than spouting off about what the Jews would or would not tolerate. Obviously, some parts of the Torah had been written in Aramaic, so your claim to the contrary seems empty.

1. present the evidence;
2. analyze the data.

Simple really. Have you no opinion, about the question I raised, regarding the Vulgate translation of 2 Kings 18:26?
beowulf
Posts: 498
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Thoughts on Maurice Casey's new book

Post by beowulf »

To Mr Huller
I am not qualified to comment on that.
User avatar
stephan happy huller
Posts: 1480
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 3:06 pm
Contact:

Re: Thoughts on Maurice Casey's new book

Post by stephan happy huller »

This is what an argument developed from a non-existent (unattested) Aramaic gospel text comes down:

The proto-gospel MUST HAVE BEEN written in Aramaic because 'Jesus was a Galilean man' AND this unattested Aramaic gospel can be used to decisively prove that Jesus was a historical Galilean man.

or is it:

The proto-gospel MUST HAVE BEEN written in Aramaic because 'Jesus was a Galilean man' THEREFORE this unattested Aramaic gospel can be used to decisively prove that Jesus was a historical Galilean man.

or is it:

The proto-gospel MUST HAVE BEEN written in Aramaic because 'Jesus was a Galilean man' BECAUSE this unattested Aramaic gospel can be used to decisively prove that Jesus was a historical Galilean man.

or again:

The proto-gospel MUST HAVE BEEN written in Aramaic because 'Jesus was a Galilean man' SO this unattested Aramaic gospel can be used to decisively prove that Jesus was a historical Galilean man.

or possibly:

The proto-gospel MUST HAVE BEEN written in Aramaic because 'Jesus was a Galilean man' TO THIS END this unattested Aramaic gospel can be used to decisively prove that Jesus was a historical Galilean man.

The bottom line that when you spell out the argument it's hopelessly circular because the proto-text is never said to have been written in Aramaic. The arguments for its existence are developed from the desired result of the inquiry. No one would trust a study that said smoking is good for you put out by the tobacco industry. The claim that the proto-gospel was written in Aramaic is similarly agenda driven.
Everyone loves the happy times
User avatar
stephan happy huller
Posts: 1480
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 3:06 pm
Contact:

Re: Thoughts on Maurice Casey's new book

Post by stephan happy huller »

The closest thing to an honest formulation would be:

The proto-gospel MUST HAVE BEEN written in Aramaic because 'Jesus was a Galilean man' AND IF YOU LIKE THAT WHY NOT ALSO ACCEPT THAT this unattested Aramaic gospel can be used to decisively prove that Jesus was a historical Galilean man.

If Casey said that it would be honest and I couldn't object, but it is hardly convincing.
Everyone loves the happy times
User avatar
stephan happy huller
Posts: 1480
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 3:06 pm
Contact:

Re: Thoughts on Maurice Casey's new book

Post by stephan happy huller »

The question concerns the lingua franca of the population of Palestine, not the language employed in writing the Torah.
If we are assuming that 'Jews' wrote the gospel (who else would write a Hebrew text) and the Torah gives 613 commandments, by what authority did the Jewish Christian converts undo their obligation to the Torah? The answer is of course, the Evangelium, and the gospel is the word of Jesus. The assumption regarding a Jewish underpinning to Christianity necessarily constrains how the gospel was understood.

Take the example of the money-changer saying in the middle of the dialogue with the priests (Mark 10, Mark 12) in the Hebrew gospel. Jesus says essentially there is a difference between what God said (the ten utterances) and what Moses said (the rest of the commandments). This POV is attested in the rabbinic writings as both 'Sadducean' and heretical (Christian). Heschel notes that when Jesus says effectively (a) God said X (b) Moses said Y but (c) I reaffirm X it confirms the rabbinic traditions understanding about Christianity. But Heschel didn't recognize that the reference to Genesis 1:27 in the Damascus Document also echoes Jesus POV in Mark 12. Heschel was an expert in the rabbinic tradition not the Qumran literature.

The point nevertheless is that it is correct to identify a 'Jewish origin' for Christianity but that when you do so you inevitably end up identifying the earliest Christians with the opponents of the rabbinic tradition who are otherwise identified as the 'two powers in heaven' tradition. The connection is not explicitly made in my knowledge in any material related to the Christian exegesis of Mark 10 or Mark 12 or the passages related to these texts in the Pentateuch. Nevertheless when we start asking ourselves the question that keeps popping up in the gospel - 'by what authority do you say these things' (a question which Jesus refuses to answer in our texts) we start to edge towards a solution.

By what authority did Christians abandon the law of circumcision? It is never spelled out in any logic form in the surviving canon but the answer is clearly linked to the 'money-changers' saying or what Heschel calls the concept of a 'heavenly Torah.' When Jesus says:

(a) God said X (b) and Moses said Y but (c) I reaffirm X

One can see him as a reformer, a conservative or whatever other label we want to give him but the authority to ignore Moses cannot be taken lightly. If the argument was made that God said one thing, Moses said another and we only accept what was 'god-given' (= the idea behind the name Dositheus, a prominent Samaritan heresy) the 'money-changer' - i.e. Jesus - had to have a greater authority than Moses. He doesn't necessarily have to be the angel who gave the ten utterances to Moses (I say this just to avoid getting dragged down to an unnecessary debate), but clearly this what the early Christians believed (i.e. Justin, Clement, Irenaeus etc).

In other words, we can develop a complicated scenario where Jesus was a man who was held to be greater than Moses and that this is why Christians had the authority to pick and choose which commandments they deemed God-given, but the straightforward answer is to follow the Church Fathers again and identify Jesus with the angel who gave the ten utterances to Moses. As such the gospel is the second Torah and this explains why the text was understood to have been written in Hebrew, rather than Aramaic.

I know this is not going to make sense to avi, but I hope it makes sense to someone else that might be reading this. The bottom line is that the 'Jewish origins' for Christianity is a Pandora's box for those hoping to buttress the neo-Protestant assumptions about a 'historical Jesus.'
Everyone loves the happy times
andrewcriddle
Posts: 3089
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:36 am

Re: Thoughts on Maurice Casey's new book

Post by andrewcriddle »

Jerome Against the Pelagians Book 3 seems relevant.
In the Gospel according to the Hebrews, which is written in the Chaldee and Syrian language, but in Hebrew characters, and is used by the Nazarenes to this day (I mean the Gospel according to the Apostles, or, as is generally maintained, the Gospel according to Matthew, a copy of which is in the library at Cæsarea), we find, Behold, the mother of our Lord and His brethren said to Him, John Baptist baptizes for the remission of sins; let us go and be baptized by him. But He said to them, what sin have I committed that I should go and be baptized by him? Unless, haply, the very words which I have said are only ignorance.
This refers to a Gospel according to the Hebrews which is unambiguously written in Aramaic but using the Hebrew alphabet.

This Gospel according to the Hebrews seems to be related to Matthew in some way.I find Jerome's claim (I mean the Gospel according to the Apostles, or, as is generally maintained, the Gospel according to Matthew) decidely obscure. It may or may not be what Papias and (probably) Pantaenus had heard about. However, despite being described as the Gospel according to the Hebrews it was definitely in Aramaic.

Andrew Criddle
User avatar
stephan happy huller
Posts: 1480
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 3:06 pm
Contact:

Re: Thoughts on Maurice Casey's new book

Post by stephan happy huller »

A good point but the various statements in Jerome suggest that he is dealing with a targum (translation) of the original Hebrew text that he came across in his travels:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Vs9YXA ... 22&f=false

As Edwards notes, this text written in Syriac is explicitly identified in Pelagius as the Gospel of Matthew (“iuxta Matthaeum”). In various other references Jerome is not simply ascribing the Hebrew Gospel to the gospel of Matthew but rather as one which ubiquitously identified with Matthew. The identification is much more qualified. Anyone who has ever read the various statements made in reference to the Hebrew gospel in Jerome knows there are at least two texts. Jerome identifies many. So it is hard not to agree with Edwards conclusion here:
For now it is important to recognize that Jerome, along with Epiphanius, implies the continued existence in the early church of a different and presumably earlier Hebrew Gospel attributed to Matthew in addition to canonical Greek Matthew. This Hebrew Gospel was a genuine Hebrew text composed originally by the apostle Matthew, translations and recensions of which still re- sided in the library of Caesarea in his day, one version of which was used by the sect of the Nazarenes.
Even by your qualified statement you seem to recognize at least two texts.
Everyone loves the happy times
andrewcriddle
Posts: 3089
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:36 am

Re: Thoughts on Maurice Casey's new book

Post by andrewcriddle »

stephan happy huller wrote:A good point but the various statements in Jerome suggest that he is dealing with a targum (translation) of the original Hebrew text that he came across in his travels:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Vs9YXA ... 22&f=false
It seems simpler to hold that when Jerome refers in more than one place to a Hebrew Gospel in the library of Caesarea which is also used by the Nazarenes, he is always referring to the same text. Even though he only once gives a precise and unambiguous description of the language of the text.

(I take seriously the possibility that this Aramaic text was a translation of a Hebrew original. What seems unlikely is that Jerome himself had first hand experience of both a Hebrew version of Matthew and an Aramaic version.)

Andrew Criddle
andrewcriddle
Posts: 3089
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:36 am

Re: Thoughts on Maurice Casey's new book

Post by andrewcriddle »

stephan happy huller wrote: As Edwards notes, this text written in Syriac is explicitly identified in Pelagius as the Gospel of Matthew (“iuxta Matthaeum”). In various other references Jerome is not simply ascribing the Hebrew Gospel to the gospel of Matthew but rather as one which ubiquitously identified with Matthew. The identification is much more qualified. Anyone who has ever read the various statements made in reference to the Hebrew gospel in Jerome knows there are at least two texts. Jerome identifies many. So it is hard not to agree with Edwards conclusion here:
For now it is important to recognize that Jerome, along with Epiphanius, implies the continued existence in the early church of a different and presumably earlier Hebrew Gospel attributed to Matthew in addition to canonical Greek Matthew. This Hebrew Gospel was a genuine Hebrew text composed originally by the apostle Matthew, translations and recensions of which still re- sided in the library of Caesarea in his day, one version of which was used by the sect of the Nazarenes.
Even by your qualified statement you seem to recognize at least two texts.
I think Jerome knew indirectly of more than one text. As I said earlier, it is IMO unlikely that he had direct access to more than one text.

The passage from Jerome cited by Edwards (about going back to the fountainhead) seems to be about divergent Greek and/or Latin texts of the NT not about variant Semitic forms.

Andrew Criddle
User avatar
stephan happy huller
Posts: 1480
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 3:06 pm
Contact:

Re: Thoughts on Maurice Casey's new book

Post by stephan happy huller »

But that's nonsense. The citations that Jerome gives from the Gospel according to the Hebrews are often completely at odds with Matthew. Origen must have been using the same text at the Caesarea library and produces even wilder references. If the historical Jesus wasn't at stake I don't think you'd be saying this, Andrew. How do you explain Jerome saying this:
Also the Gospel according to the Hebrews, lately translated by me into Greek and Latin speech, which Origen often uses, tells, after the resurrection of the Saviour: 'Now the Lord, when he had given the linen cloth unto the servant of the priest, went unto James and appeared to him (for James had sworn that he would not eat bread from that hour wherein he had drunk the Lord's cup until he should see him risen again from among them that sleep)', and again after a little, 'Bring ye, saith the Lord, a table and bread', and immediately it is added, 'He took bread and blessed and brake and gave it unto James the Just and said unto him: My brother, eat thy bread, for the Son of Man is risen from among them that sleep'.
This is a text which is 'iuxta Matthaeum'? And this is a different text?
Origen on John, ii. 12. And if any accept the Gospel according to the Hebrews, where the Saviour himself saith, 'Even now did my mother the Holy Spirit take me by one of mine hairs, and carried me away unto the great mountain Thabor', he will be perplexed, &c. . .
and this from Origen's own Commentary on Matthew:
It is written in a certain Gospel which is called according to the Hebrews (if at elast any one care to accept it, not as authoritative, but to throw light on the question before us):

The second of the rich men (it saith) said unto him: Master, what good thing can I do and live? He said unto him: O man, fulfil (do) the law and the prophets.

He answered him: I have kept them. He said unto him: Go, sell al that thou ownest, and distribute it unto the poor, and come, follow me. But the rich man began to scratch his head, and it pleased him not. And the Lord said unto him: How sayest though: I have kept the law and the prophets? For it is written in the law: Though shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, and lo, many of thy brethren, sons of Abraham, are clad in filth, dying for hunger, and thine house is full of many good things, and nought at all goeth out of it unto them.

And he turned and said unto Simon his disciple who was sitting by him: Simon, son of Joanna, it is easier for a camel to enter in by a needle's eye than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven.
And Epiphanius who says that the Diatessaron is to be identified with the same text and this texts resemblance to a 'gospel harmony'? Come on, this is silly and contrived ...

How could Jerome cite Origen as having the (Caesarean) text in front of him, Origen himself admit the strangeness of the text but we are supposed to identify this as the same text which Jerome says is identical with Matthew? It is impossible. There are two different texts.
Everyone loves the happy times
Post Reply