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Re: Thoughts on Maurice Casey's new book

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:14 pm
by andrewcriddle
stephan happy huller wrote: and this from Origen's own Commentary on Matthew:
It is written in a certain Gospel which is called according to the Hebrews (if at elast any one care to accept it, not as authoritative, but to throw light on the question before us):

The second of the rich men (it saith) said unto him: Master, what good thing can I do and live? He said unto him: O man, fulfil (do) the law and the prophets.

He answered him: I have kept them. He said unto him: Go, sell al that thou ownest, and distribute it unto the poor, and come, follow me. But the rich man began to scratch his head, and it pleased him not. And the Lord said unto him: How sayest though: I have kept the law and the prophets? For it is written in the law: Though shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, and lo, many of thy brethren, sons of Abraham, are clad in filth, dying for hunger, and thine house is full of many good things, and nought at all goeth out of it unto them.

And he turned and said unto Simon his disciple who was sitting by him: Simon, son of Joanna, it is easier for a camel to enter in by a needle's eye than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven.
To get this out of the way.

It is not by Origen but was added to the Latin translation of Origen's Commentary on Matthew.

Andrew Criddle

Re: Thoughts on Maurice Casey's new book

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:26 pm
by stephan happy huller
So Origen had access to the Gospel according to the Hebrews, Jerome says he and Origen translated the same text, he cites Origen citing the Gospel according to the Hebrews, what Origen cites from the Gospel according to the Hebrews is wildly different from canonical Matthew but in this instance - presumably because it is 'too wildly' different from Matthew - it's not acknowledged as being Origen. So there was another guy who decided to continue Origen's Commentary after someone else got rid of the original commentary and when he started again in the fourth century he decided to add material from another Gospel according to the Hebrews? Two Commentaries/two Gospel according to the Hebrews?

But this 'other Origen' citing from 'another Gospel according to the Hebrews' happens to cite a passage which is universally recognized to support Epiphanius's claim that the 'Gospel according to the Hebrews' is one and the same with the Diatessaron.

http://books.google.com/books?id=E_Nufg ... 22&f=false

Notice how consistently the Gospel of the Hebrews in Jerome agree with the Diatessaron. It is undoubtedly the same text regardless of this modern distraction. Origen's material was written by Eusebius and later Rufinus anyway. It would be foolish to argue for any passage to be absolutely authentic. The whole collection is pseudo-Origenist for that matter why limit yourself to the Latin portions of the Commentary on Matthew? Oh I forgot. When Eusebius was hunting for 'heretical additions' he was correcting the text in the 'right way' ...

Re: Thoughts on Maurice Casey's new book

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:35 pm
by stephan happy huller
And the claim that the 'overlap' in the twelfth and thirteenth chapters of the Greek and Latin copies of the Commentary is supposed to 'prove' that the Latin text wasn't derived from the original Origenist sections is typical scholarly superficiality. I can remember from memory reading the section in the Greek commentary where Origen at first depreciates the authority of Peter in his treatment of the Transfiguration narrative. Then in the next paragraph he acknowledges Peter's authority. The result of rewrite? Who cares! As long as it favors 'our tradition' or 'our side'? It's scandalous. The whole corpus is spurious or at least rewritten three or four times. There is Origen, the Eusebius layer and the Rufinus layer and perhaps others in between and even after. The same situation exists in all religious literary traditions. There are layers to Marqe the Samaritan, the gemara. But when it comes to the Church Fathers we think we are really hearing Justin (even though he mentions political realities that only existed a generation after he dies), Irenaeus (even though Adversus Haeresis never stops being reworked), Tertullian (even though he copied whole texts very loosely and imaginatively never acknowledging the original works). Really? This isn't absolutely infantile? It's so utterly childish and depressing. We are not getting the original Origen, nor the original Justin, nor any of the early and controversial Church Fathers. So why start counting with the Latin text of the Commentaries?

Re: Thoughts on Maurice Casey's new book

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:44 pm
by beowulf
All this is irrelevant to the this thread

Maurice Casey is making an effort to establish if he can dig up some evidence for the claim that Jesus spoke Aramaic.
He is not doing it to prove the historicity of Jesus nor to provide entertainment for verbose bloggers.
Blessed be he

Re: Thoughts on Maurice Casey's new book

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:49 pm
by andrewcriddle
stephan happy huller wrote:But that's nonsense. The citations that Jerome gives from the Gospel according to the Hebrews are often completely at odds with Matthew. Origen must have been using the same text at the Caesarea library and produces even wilder references. If the historical Jesus wasn't at stake I don't think you'd be saying this, Andrew. How do you explain Jerome saying this:
Also the Gospel according to the Hebrews, lately translated by me into Greek and Latin speech, which Origen often uses, tells, after the resurrection of the Saviour: 'Now the Lord, when he had given the linen cloth unto the servant of the priest, went unto James and appeared to him (for James had sworn that he would not eat bread from that hour wherein he had drunk the Lord's cup until he should see him risen again from among them that sleep)', and again after a little, 'Bring ye, saith the Lord, a table and bread', and immediately it is added, 'He took bread and blessed and brake and gave it unto James the Just and said unto him: My brother, eat thy bread, for the Son of Man is risen from among them that sleep'.
This is a text which is 'iuxta Matthaeum'? And this is a different text?
Origen on John, ii. 12. And if any accept the Gospel according to the Hebrews, where the Saviour himself saith, 'Even now did my mother the Holy Spirit take me by one of mine hairs, and carried me away unto the great mountain Thabor', he will be perplexed, &c. . .
Hi Stephan

What I think, (and rightly or wrongly it is an opinion shared by a number of scholars) , is that these passages come from an originally Greek Gospel of the Hebrews known to both Jerome and Origen, which Jerome in his writings sometimes confuses with the Semitic Gospel which he had read but Origen probably had not. (The pseudo-Origen passage you cited probably comes ultimately from the Semitic Gospel.)

You will probably regard this as wild speculation and you may be right.

However the fundamental argument can IMO be restated in a less speculative way.
a/ Some of Jerome's references to a Hebrew Gospel or suchlike refer to something closely resembling Matthew.
b/ Some of Jerome's references to a Hebrew Gospel or suchlike refer to something very different from Matthew.
c/ The references in Against the Pelagians are clearly to an Aramaic Gospel closely resembling Matthew.
d/ Therefore either Jerome knew two Semitic Gospels closely resembling Matthew, one in Hebrew and one in Aramaic (which seems excessively complicated) or Jerome knew only one Semitic Gospel closely resembling Matthew and it was in Aramaic.

Andrew Criddle

Re: Thoughts on Maurice Casey's new book

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:53 pm
by stephan happy huller
I love having the opportunity to engage with someone like you so I can't help but be favorably disposed toward any speculation on your part. It comes from an informed mind. That's all that matters. He's some wild (or at least wilder) speculation on my part. Another critical issue to consider here which never gets mentioned enough by scholars. When the rampage against Origenism started in 395, Jerome renounced Origen. This letter was written after that renunciation of Origenism (416 CE). If Origen was so explicitly connected with the Gospel according to the Hebrews as Jerome's own testimony indicates can't the recalibration of the Gospel according to the Hebrews as 'just' a Syriac text of Matthew fit in with this reformation?

Re: Thoughts on Maurice Casey's new book

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:05 pm
by stephan happy huller
Hmmm. The argument in book three seems to be about 'free will' and baptism. What was at the heart of the Origenist controversies a generation earlier? The discussion here seems to echo many topics associated with Origenism. Notice what his opponent says immediately after his citation:
Talk as you like, argue as you please, you will never wrest from me free will, which God bestowed once for all, nor will you be able to deprive me of what God has given, the ability if I have the will.
It was likely not a good idea for this 'dialogue' to show Jerome was appealing to a quasi-orthodox text intimately associated with Origen and which was used to assert Origenist sounding ideas.

Re: Thoughts on Maurice Casey's new book

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:41 pm
by stephan happy huller
I want the reader to pay close attention to the citation from the Gospel according to the Hebrews:
“Behold, the mother of our Lord and His brethren said to Him, John Baptist baptizes for the remission of sins; let us go and be baptized by him. But He said to them, what sin have I committed that I should go and be baptized by him? Unless, haply, the very words which I have said are only ignorance.”
How could Jerome have been so stupid as to maintain that this "is generally maintained, the Gospel according to Matthew, a copy of which is in the library at Cæsarea." The explicit testimony to Jerome continuing to use an 'Origenist' gospel has been deliberately reworked and softened into an Aramaic translation of Matthew. Does anyone doubt this honestly?

Re: Thoughts on Maurice Casey's new book

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:06 pm
by stephan happy huller
Here we go exactly as I suspected. Jerome dies in 420. The 'sudden appearance' of an Aramaic 'Gospel according to the Hebrews' which is identified as identical with 'according to Matthew occurs in 416 as Driver helps provide context for Against Pelagius
In the last decade of Jerome's life, Pelagius came to reside in Palestine. He was tolerated, if not welcomed, by John, the patriarch of Jerusalem. This angered Jerome, who held no love for John because of his earlier support of Rufinus. Tension soon began to grow between the supporters of Pelagius and of Jerome. Ctesiphon, presumably one of Pelagius' patrons, wrote to Jerome in the hope of establishing a dialogue between the two sides. Jerome had no desire to participate in such a dialogue and instead responded harshly to Ctesiphon. Among the charges that Jerome leveled against Pelagius was that of being an Origenist.86 According to Jerome, it was Pelagius who first raised the specter of Origen by reviving Rufinus' accusation that Jerome had relied heavily on Origen in his early biblical commentaries, especially his Commentary on Ephesians.87 While Jerome argued vehemently that he had vindicated himself of the charge of heresy long before and that his ferocious attacks on the supporters of Origen were proof of his orthodoxy, he nonetheless felt vulnerable to this sort of accusation. There is good reason to accept Jerome's claim that Pelagius was the first to raise the ghost of Origen. As Robert Evans has shown, it would not have been to Jerome's benefit to mention Origen. He had indeed relied heavily on Origen in his early biblical commentaries and his subsequent recantations and denials could not entirely hide this fact. Pelagius, on the other hand, could have hoped to weaken Jerome's support in the West by reminding Latin readers of his earlier errors and the bitter nature of his earlier conflicts.88 Since Jerome enjoyed little popularity in Palestine, he was heavily dependent upon support from the West to sustain the monasteries that he and Paula had founded.89 Jerome's reversal of Pelagius' accusation may also have been more than an attempt to turn the tables on his foe. He may have seen the affinity between the supporters of Pelagius and the earlier supporters of Rufinus and Melania the Elder. As his stance against Pelagius developed in the course of his writings, Jerome became increasingly convinced that Pelagius had gained his understanding of sin from Origen, or at least from Origen's intellectual descendants ... If Jerome could prove the existence of a link between Origen and Pelagius, then his battle would be over before it had begun. http://books.google.com/books?id=Jdb5AQ ... 22&f=false
So the idea that it 'just so happens' that the text of the Gospel according to the Hebrews which Jerome consistently notes Origen cites in his writings (undoubtedly because the two frequented the same library in Caesarea where the document was preserved) suddenly transforms into an 'Aramaic copy of Matthew' when in previous generations it was a distinct Hebrew text from Matthew can't be coincidence. Andrew, do you really pretend that contemporary historical and political reality played no part in the sudden 'transformation' of the text? Come on now this is getting ridiculous.

In his earlier works he says - Origen says X about the Gospel according to the Hebrews which is nothing like Matthew - but now that he is engaged with an opponent who said 'Jerome should be suspect because he frequently cited Origen in his previous works' suddenly it's:

(a) no mention of Origen
(b) the Gospel according to the Hebrews at Caesarea is 'according to Matthew'

Ha ha ha ha! I find it depressing that any argument, even the most pathetic, which supports the idea that the Church Fathers never strayed far from the canonical texts is accepted by you. Surely you can see the progression. When Jerome was an Origenist he was honest and now that he's become a traitor to the cause after saving his own skin he's engaged in outright dishonesty. No? We should really accept your formulation that there was one Gospel according to the Hebrews and it was always like Matthew? How could this possibly be true? It's dishonest because you aren't recognizing that Jerome was being dishonest.

Re: Thoughts on Maurice Casey's new book

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:58 pm
by stephan happy huller
And there is a new wrinkle to consider also (I have never paid much attention to fifth century works before). The translator notes "The anti-Pelagian Dialogue is the last of Jerome's controversial works, having been written in the year 417, within three years of his death." Ok. But the speaker is not Jerome per se it is worth noting. Jerome writes the prologue and there notes the background for the work:
After writing the letter to Ctesiphon, in which I replied to the questions propounded, I received frequent expostulations from the brethren, who wanted to know why I any longer delayed the promised work in which I undertook to answer all the subtleties of the preachers of Impassibility.
The facts of the matter is that Jerome does not engage the followers of Pelagius directly. What I mean is that what follows is not Jerome attacking these Origenists as a former Origenist. Instead he introduces a certain Atticus, who is a follower of Augustine and a Critobulus who is a follower of Pelagius. The dialogue that follows begins:
Atticus. I hear, Critobulus, that you have written that man can be without sin, if he chooses; and that the commandments of God are easy. Tell me, is it true?

Critobulus. It is true, Atticus; but our rivals do not take the words in the sense I attached to them.
The point of course is that Jerome is not actually saying this or that about the 'Gospel according to the Hebrews' or anything else in the Dialogue. It is Atticus. Atticus is the author's mouthpiece. But is the author of what follows even Jerome, or a devoted student? Who knows. It is certainly not the case that Jerome has suddenly changed his mind about the Gospel according to the Hebrews. Atticus is doing all the talking.

So it is becoming increasingly clear that if Jerome wrote this treatise he deliberately distances himself from the Gospel according to the Hebrews and its contents. Jerome is nowhere to be found in the debate and now Atticus - not Jerome - is allowed free reign to 'make up shit' about the text, things which are never found in any of Jerome's previous statements about the text.

Beatrice points interestingly to Photius's Biblioteca 177 and its preservation of the 'other side' to the debate here. Roger Pearse has put in line the contents which I reproduce here:
177. [Theodore of Antioch (Mopsuestia), Against those who say that men sin by nature and not by intention] 1.

Read a book whose subscription reads, "Theodore of Antioch, Against those who say that men sin by nature and not by intention." His polemic against those is developed in 5 books. He wrote this work against westerners touched by this ill; it is among them, he says, that the promoter of this heresy appeared: he left these and came to establish himself in eastern regions and there composed some books on the new heresy which he had imagined, and sent them to the inhabitants of his country of origin. By these writings, he attracted many people of those regions to adopt his views to the point where entire churches were filled with his error.

I cannot say with certainty whether the name of Aram which he gives to their chief is a name or nickname 2. This person, the author says, fashioned a fifth gospel which he feigns that he found in the libraries of Eusebius of Palestine. He rejected the translation of the New and the Old Testament published by the united Seventy and also those of Symmachus, Aquila 3, and others, and boasted that he had composed a new one of his own without, like the others, having studied and practised Hebrew since infancy and without having mastered the spirit of the Holy Scripture. Instead he put himself under the tuiton of some low-class Jews and there acquired the audacity to make his own version.

The principles of their heresy are, in summary, the following. Men sin, they say, by nature and not by intention; and 'by nature' they do not mean that nature which was in Adam when first created (because this, they say, was good because made by a good God), but that nature which was his later after the fall because of his ill conduct and sin. He received a sinful nature in exchange for the good and a mortal nature in exchange for an immortal; it is in this manner and by nature that men became sinners after having been good by nature. It is in their nature and not by a voluntary choice that they acquired sin.

The second point is connected to the preceding propositions. They say that infants, even newly born, are not free from sin because, since the disobedience of Adam, nature is fixed into sin and that this sinful nature, as was said, extends to all his descendants. They quote, he says, the verse, "I was born in sin" and others similar: the holy baptism itself; the communion with the incorruptible body for the remission of sins and the fact that these apply to infants as a confirmation of their own opinion. They claim also that no man is just, and this is thus obviously a corollary of their initial position, "because nothing of flesh can be justified before you," he says, and he cites other texts of the same kind.

The fourth point (O blasphemous and impious mouth) is that Christ himself, our God, because he put on a nature soiled by sin, was not himself free from sin. However, in other places in their impious writings, as the author says, it can be seen that they apply the Incarnation to Christ not in truth and in nature, but only in appearance.

The fifth point is that marriage, they say, or the desire of carnal union and the ejection of seed and all that is of that domain and by which our species perpetuates itself and increases itself are works of the evil nature into which Adam fell through sin to receive all the weight of the evils because of his sinful nature. Such are thus the positions of the heretics.

As for our Theodore, he repulses them with reason and sometimes it is in the best manner and with vigour that he blames the absurd and blasphemous character of their opinions; and, in returning to the words of Scripture that the others interpret against their correct meaning, he demonstrates their ignorance perfectly 1. On the other hand, this is not always the case, but he seems to us, in many places, entangled in the Nestorian heresy and echoes that of Origen, at least in that which concerns the end of punishment.

Further, he says that Adam was mortal from the beginning and that it was only in appearance, to make us hate sin, that God seemed to impose death on us as a punishment for sin; this assertion does not seem to me to proceed from just reasoning, but on the contrary it leaves much to explain if someone chooses to ask, even if, as the author wants to say, a opinion like his is strongly opposed to heresy. Because an idea is not good just because it fights a bad idea ---- in fact bad ideas combat each other ---- but that which conforms to valid reasoning and is supported by the testimony of the holy Scriptures is admissible, even if no heresy dares to oppose it.

There is a further point which in my judgement has no place among the dogmas of the truth, which is affirmed with excessive insistance and which is not recognised by the divine church: that there are two remissions of sin, one for what one has done and the other, what to call it I do not know, a remission which is the very fact of existing without sin or of sinning no more (in fact we need several explanatory terms in order to express this new kind of remission of sins). He calls what is properly called the absence of sin, the total remission and a more appropriate sense of the term and the complete destruction of error.

What then is this remission of sins? Where is it granted? When does it begin? It began to manifest, he says, with the incarnation of Christ our Lord and was given by way of a down-payment; and it is given in a perfect manner and based on our works even in that restoration which follows the resurrection and to obtain which we are baptised just like our children.

But what has been said so far is deserving enough of respect and close to nature to make us turn everything avidly towards our end. Tell us again, what is done and what is to do? In fact we will lend you an attentive ear. What is this famous total remission of sin? He says that we will sin no more after the resurrection. But what hopes you have dashed! Because, leaving to one side this investigation into the manner in which the remission of sin must be stated, I will explain myself briefly.

And what? It is for this, in your eyes, that the Christ became incarnate, and was crucified, ---- that you would sin no more when you were resurrected from among the dead? So those who sinned before Christ walked on earth sin among the dead? And, if we are not baptized, we will commit still more sins among the dead, according to you, us and the tiny infants? And all the infidels, in the future life, they will be able to commit thefts, adulteries, impieties, robberies, and to satisfy all their wicked passions? Because you will not find for them any chastisements just or heavy enough for faults committed in that life!

These then are the reasons why in my opinion it is proven that his idea of the remission of sins cannot be approved. Perhaps he himself did not arrive at this view on his own, but to resolve the difficulties raised by those who wonder why children participate in incorruptible mysteries and why it is thought that they merit baptism if this is not because they themselves are charged with sins, since this sin is bound up in their nature, because the sacraments are administered for the remission of sins. But it will be necessary to resolve this difficulty, which offers numerous elements of solution, in another way, and, after having examined the astonishing corollaries of his conception of the remission of sins, not to strain so hard for an answer.

This Theodore is the author who also write polemically with success in twenty-eight books against Eunomius to defend the teaching of St. Basil,4 or rather, the truth; in fact the vocabulary, the arrangement of words, the spirit of the dogmas, the richness of the refutation and all the rest offers nothing wrong. He is lacking in clarity, although he uses a vocabulary which contains nothing unusual, but most of the time he employs long periods and repeated digressions during which the sense of his arguments is much delayed. He employs oblique cases and participles in abundance; he often repeats the same facts in no particular order; his repetitions (in which there is a total lack of method) are longer than the matter of his book itself. Some defects of this kind produce a great obscurity in his writings.5 However he seems to have worked seriously at our holy scripture, although he deviates frequently from the truth.


1. This work is by Theodore of Mopsuestia (ca. 350-428AD). He was born in Antioch and became bishop of Mopsuestia in 392. He was a pupil of the famous pagan rhetorican Libanius, as was John Chrysostom. He wrote commentaries on many books of the bible, mostly lost, but substantial remains exist in catenae. He was the leading member of the Antiochene school of exegesis, which was opposed to excessively allegorical interpretation of the scripture and applied philological methods of the kind used on literature by pagan scholars. Photius also deals with his work in codices 4 and 38. This particular work is lost, but fragments exist quoted in Latin by Marius Mercator (5th century) and are printed in Migne, Patrologia Graeca, vol. 66, col. 1005-1012 in the Collectio Palatina.

Note that the codex is headed 'Theodore of Antioch' in the manuscripts. This is misleading, and a marginal note was added from somewhere in a different hand in A, reading "this is the bishop of Mopsuestia, as we have gathered from some letters." Wilson suggests that the note may be due to Photius himself.

2. 'Aram' is generally agreed to be St. Jerome. It is curious that Theodore should invent a name, since Hieronymos Eusebios is a Greek name. The work of Jerome's 'composed in the Orient' is his Dialogi in Pelagianos (Dialogues against the Pelagians). Pelagius and his partisans exaggerated the importance of freewill, but the reaction of St. Jerome was to assert almost the opposite, which gave rise to attacks like those in the work treated here. The bad state of the preservation of the text of the works of Theodore, and the limited value of the Latin fragments, makes it hard to relate them to this summary of the Greek work, and difficult to know the thought of Theodore accurately.

3. Manuscript is literally 'Akylas'.

4. Codex 4.

5. This assessment is less favourable than that given in codex 4.
Jerome's opponents were Origenists. Theodore was not. But his report clearly knows of Against Pelagius. As Beatrice notes it is echoing the main points of the treatise sometimes verbatim:

http://books.google.com/books?id=wv7HNm ... 22&f=false

Not only is Jerome's citation of the Gospel according to the Hebrews specifically referenced in the accusation that this heretic claimed Jesus was not free from sin, but the explicit identification of him with the nickname 'Aram' (= Aramaic) whom he says "fashioned a fifth gospel which he feigns that he found in the libraries of Eusebius of Palestine." This reference is completely ignored in the discussion so far but the implications are far reaching.

Theodore undoubtedly learned about this 'Aram(aean)' who fashioned a false gospel from a source like Julian the Pelagian who similarly writes:
Verum his ut res postulabat implctis, juvat te vel mediocriter convenire, qua fiducia tu, cum Hieronymi scripta collaudes, dicas in Christo non fuisse peccatum, cum ille in Dialogo illo, quern sub nomine Attici et Critoboli, mira et ut talem (idem deccbat venustale composuit, etiam "quinti Evangelii", quod a se translatum dicit, testimonio nitatur ostendere, Christum non solum naturale, verum etiam voluntarium habuisse peccatum, propter quod se cognoverit Johannis baptismate diluendum. De alio etiam testimonio Joannis evangelistae flagitium et assuit falsitatis. De quo opere tu in illa epistola, quam Alexandriam destinasti, ita gloriaris, ut dicas Pelagium, scripturarum ab eo oppressum molibus, arbitrium liberum vindicare non posse. Verum illi operi a catholico viro, qui pulsatus fuerat, obviatum est. Nunc vero ad hoc commemorationem ejus tantummodo fecil ut te recognosceres non solum Scripturis sanctis, sed nec ipsis tui dogmatis adjutoribus consonare..
When you start to put the pieces together it is clear that (a) the passage in question was understood to have been made up and (b) Theodore's identification of him as 'the Aramaean' is connected with this accusation. In other words, the claim that there was a Gospel according to the Hebrews written in Aramaic was also deemed a lie. Thus Jerome is ridiculed as 'the Aramaean' with a false gospel.