Thoughts on Maurice Casey's new book

[neilgodfrey]

Why are we all discussing this book?

Bart Ehrman claimed on the 12th of March 2014 that the book is not out yet and thinks it amazing that anybody can have written a review of it before it is out.

And we all know the quality of Bart's research....

The real concern here is not so much Bart's "quality of research" but his obvious preparation to interpret what he hears in a way that accuses Carrier of dishonesty. He'd sooner believe Carrier was dishonest and unprofessional than that he might have been mistaken or misinformed for assuming that the book was not yet published.

[MrMacSon]

^ "Bart'd sooner believe Carrier was dishonest and unprofessional than that he - Bart? - might have been mistaken or misinformed for assuming that the Casey's ?? book was not yet published" ??

[Blood]

Why are we all discussing this book?

Bart Ehrman claimed on the 12th of March 2014 that the book is not out yet and thinks it amazing that anybody can have written a review of it before it is out.

And we all know the quality of Bart's research....

Amazon shows the release date as 13 March 2014, so he probably based it on that or something similar.

[stephan happy huller]

Sorry to go back to the Hebrew gospel discussion I had with Andrew but I think I found an important proof that the gospels went back to a Hebrew original. If you look at Luke 6:43 and Matt 7:14 there is an amazing variety of textual readings in the Syriac tradition undoubtedly because in part they used a Diatessaron. If we stick to the differences between the Greek texts we see

Οὐ γάρ ἐστιν δένδρον καλὸν ποιοῦν καρπὸν σαπρόν, οὐδὲ πάλιν δένδρον σαπρὸν ποιοῦν καρπὸν καλόν. [Luke 6:43]

οὐ δύναται δένδρον ἀγαθὸν καρποὺς πονηροὺς ποιεῖν, οὐδὲ δένδρον σαπρὸν καρποὺς καλοὺς ποιεῖν. [Matt 7:18]

Ἢ ποιήσατε τὸ δένδρον καλὸν καὶ τὸν καρπὸν αὐτοῦ καλόν, ἢ ποιήσατε τὸ δένδρον σαπρὸν καὶ τὸν καρπὸν αὐτοῦ σαπρόν· ἐκ γὰρ τοῦ καρποῦ τὸ δένδρον γινώσκεται. [Matt 12:33]

So the rotten or evil fruit of the various texts finds only ܒܐܫ in the Peshitta which means 'bad' or 'evil' in Syriac and Aramaic. Yet interestingly בָּאַשׁ in Hebrew - the same letters - mean

disgusting, foul, odious, stink

Isn't this decisive proof that the Greek text knew of something earlier which read the letters bet alef shin as 'rotten'? I wonder if there are other examples? I wonder if anyone has actually spent the time to look for these examples.

[stephan happy huller]

And then I discovered it! The Hebrew context for the passage - Isaiah 5 which has already been used in the parable of the tenants (Mark 12.1-12; Matthew 21.33-41, 41, 41-42, 43-44, 46, 45; Luke 20.9-17, I8, 19) :

I will sing for the one I love
a song about his vineyard:
My loved one had a vineyard
on a fertile hillside.
He dug it up and cleared it of stones
and planted it with the choicest vines.
He built a watchtower in it
and cut out a winepress as well.
Then he looked for a crop of good grapes,
but it yielded only bad fruit (בְּאֻשִׁים).
“Now you dwellers in Jerusalem and people of Judah,
judge between me and my vineyard.
What more could have been done for my vineyard
than I have done for it?
When I looked for good grapes,
why did it yield only bad fruit (בְּאֻשִׁים)?
Now I will tell you
what I am going to do to my vineyard:
I will take away its hedge,
and it will be destroyed;
I will break down its wall,
and it will be trampled.
I will make it a wasteland,
neither pruned nor cultivated,
and briers and thorns will grow there.
I will command the clouds
not to rain on it.”
The vineyard of the Lord Almighty
is the nation of Israel,
and the people of Judah
are the vines he delighted in.
And he looked for justice, but saw bloodshed;
for righteousness, but heard cries of distress.

I think there is a paper in this ...

[stephan happy huller]

Jesus then began to speak to them in parables: “A man planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a pit for the winepress and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and moved to another place. 2 At harvest time he sent a servant to the tenants to collect from them some of the fruit of the vineyard. 3 But they seized him, beat him and sent him away empty-handed. 4 Then he sent another servant to them; they struck this man on the head and treated him shamefully. 5 He sent still another, and that one they killed. He sent many others; some of them they beat, others they killed.

6 “He had one left to send, a son, whom he loved. He sent him last of all, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’

7 “But the tenants said to one another, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.’ 8 So they took him and killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard.

9 “What then will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others. 10 Haven’t you read this passage of Scripture:


“‘The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;

11
the Lord has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’?”

12 Then the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders looked for a way to arrest him because they knew he had spoken the parable against them. But they were afraid of the crowd; so they left him and went away.

Besides the similarity in overall theme between the two passages, the language of Mark 12:1—2 closely echoes that of Isaiah 5:1—2 LXX, where eight of the same Greek words are used to describe the planting and protection of the vineyard.

Καὶ ἤρξατο αὐτοῖς ἐν παραβολαῖς λαλεῖν. ἀμπελῶνα ἄνθρωπος ἐφύτευσεν, καὶ περιέθηκεν φραγμὸν καὶ ὤρυξεν ὑπολήνιον καὶ ᾠκοδόμησεν πύργον, καὶ ἐξέδετο αὐτὸν γεωργοῖς, καὶ ἀπεδήμησεν. 2 καὶ ἀπέστειλεν πρὸς τοὺς γεωργοὺς τῷ καιρῷ δοῦλον, ἵνα παρὰ τῶν γεωργῶν λάβῃ ἀπὸ τῶν καρπῶν τοῦ ἀμπελῶνος· [Mark 12:1 - 2]

ᾄσω δὴ τῷ ἠγαπημένῳ ᾆσμα τοῦ ἀγαπητοῦ τῷ ἀμπελῶνί μου ἀμπελὼν ἐγενήθη τῷ ἠγαπημένῳ ἐν κέρατι ἐν τόπῳ πίονι. καὶ φραγμὸν περιέθηκα καὶ ἐχαράκωσα καὶ ἐφύτευσα ἄμπελον σωρηχ καὶ ᾠκοδόμησα πύργον ἐν μέσῳ αὐτοῦ καὶ προλήνιον ὤρυξα ἐν αὐτῷ καὶ ἔμεινα τοῦ ποιῆσαι σταφυλήν ἐποίησεν δὲ ἀκάνθας [Isaiah 5:1 - 2]

Of course Isaiah 5:2 LXX says 'thorns' and the Hebrew 'rotten fruit.' But there is something here, don't you think?

[DCHindley]

Why are we all discussing this book?

Bart Ehrman claimed on the 12th of March 2014 that the book is not out yet and thinks it amazing that anybody can have written a review of it before it is out.

And we all know the quality of Bart's research....

It's been out in a Kindle format since January and was made available for bookstore stock since March 13th. That's why ...

DCH

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Why are we all discussing this book?

Bart Ehrman claimed on the 12th of March 2014 that the book is not out yet and thinks it amazing that anybody can have written a review of it before it is out.

And we all know the quality of Bart's research....

It's been out in a Kindle format since January and was made available for bookstore stock since March 13th. That's why ...

DCH

Ehrman's book? I have it pre-ordered both on Kindle and Audible, but I won't get either until Tuesday.

[DCHindley]

Why are we all discussing this book?

Bart Ehrman claimed on the 12th of March 2014 that the book is not out yet and thinks it amazing that anybody can have written a review of it before it is out.

And we all know the quality of Bart's research....

It's been out in a Kindle format since January and was made available for bookstore stock since March 13th. That's why ...

DCH

Ehrman's book? I have it pre-ordered both on Kindle and Audible, but I won't get either until Tuesday.

No, I thought the discussion as about Casey's book. Ehrman commented the day before Casey's book actually hit bookshelves (3/13/14), reasoning that since it was not available in bookstores as of the date of his post (3/12/14), "how could somebody have reviewed the book?" The fact was that the book was released as a Kindle book format in January 2014, so it actually was possible to have reviewed the electronic version of the book at the time of his comment. I think Ehrman was not aware of the Kindle edition, which may account for Stephan' comment about the quality of Ehrman's research.

DCH

[andrewcriddle]

No, I thought the discussion as about Casey's book. Ehrman commented the day before Casey's book actually hit bookshelves (3/13/14), reasoning that since it was not available in bookstores as of the date of his post (3/12/14), "how could somebody have reviewed the book?" The fact was that the book was released as a Kindle book format in January 2014, so it actually was possible to have reviewed the electronic version of the book at the time of his comment. I think Ehrman was not aware of the Kindle edition, which may account for Stephan' comment about the quality of Ehrman's research.

DCH

However Casey's book has been available in bookshops in England for some months. See earlier posts in this thread.

Andrew Criddle

NB I think you meant Steven's comment not Stephan's comment.