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Justin Dialogue seems to know the verse:

And it was foretold what each should be according to rank and according to fore-knowledge. Jacob served Laban for speckled and many-spotted sheep; and Christ served, even to the slavery of the cross, for the various and many-formed races of mankind, acquiring them by the blood and mystery of the cross [Dial 134]

Secret Alias wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:22 am The passage in question echoes Odes of Solomon 41 (or vice versa) with no mention of death on a cross there:

ODE 41.

1 All the Lord's children will praise Him, and will collect the truth of His faith.
2 And His children shall be known to Him. Therefore we will sing in His love:
3 We live in the Lord by His grace: and life we receive in His Messiah:
4 For a great day has shined upon us: and marvellous is He who has given us of His glory.
5 Let us, therefore, all of us unite together in the name of the Lord, and let us honour Him in His goodness,
6 And let our faces shine in His light: and let our hearts meditate in His love by night and by day.
7 Let us exult with the joy of the Lord.
8 All those will be astonished that see me. For from another race am I:
9 For the Father of truth remembered me: He who possessed me from the beginning:
10 For His bounty begat me, and the thought of His heart:
11 And His Word is with us in all our way;
12 The Saviour who makes alive and does not reject our souls-;
13 The man who was humbled, and exalted by His own righteousness,
14 The Son of the Most High appeared in the perfection of His Father;
15 And light dawned from the Word that was beforetime in Him;
16 The Messiah is truly one; and He was known before the foundation of the world,
17 That He might save souls for ever by the truth of His name: a new song arises from those who love Him. Hallelujah.

Yes, good one.

Secret Alias wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:25 am Justin Dialogue seems to know the verse:

And it was foretold what each should be according to rank and according to fore-knowledge. Jacob served Laban for speckled and many-spotted sheep; and Christ served, even to the slavery of the cross, for the various and many-formed races of mankind, acquiring them by the blood and mystery of the cross [Dial 134]

In Greek: μέχρι σταυροῦ δουλείαν. Slavery and crosses go together like love and marriage or a horse and carriage.

Adela Yarbro Collins ,suggests that Carmen Christi was composed by Paul.

More recent studies suggest that it is exalted prose rather than poetry. The hypothesis of this article is that Paul composed it, either for worship or for the purposes of the argument of his letter to the Philippians

Psalms, Philippians 2:6-11, and the Origins of Christology
Biblical Interpretation, Volume 11, Issue 3, pages 361 – 372 Publication Year : 2003

Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:34 am

Secret Alias wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:22 am The passage in question echoes Odes of Solomon 41 (or vice versa) with no mention of death on a cross there:

ODE 41.

1 All the Lord's children will praise Him, and will collect the truth of His faith.
2 And His children shall be known to Him. Therefore we will sing in His love:
3 We live in the Lord by His grace: and life we receive in His Messiah:
4 For a great day has shined upon us: and marvellous is He who has given us of His glory.
5 Let us, therefore, all of us unite together in the name of the Lord, and let us honour Him in His goodness,
6 And let our faces shine in His light: and let our hearts meditate in His love by night and by day.
7 Let us exult with the joy of the Lord.
8 All those will be astonished that see me. For from another race am I:
9 For the Father of truth remembered me: He who possessed me from the beginning:
10 For His bounty begat me, and the thought of His heart:
11 And His Word is with us in all our way;
12 The Saviour who makes alive and does not reject our souls-;
13 The man who was humbled, and exalted by His own righteousness,
14 The Son of the Most High appeared in the perfection of His Father;
15 And light dawned from the Word that was beforetime in Him;
16 The Messiah is truly one; and He was known before the foundation of the world,
17 That He might save souls for ever by the truth of His name: a new song arises from those who love Him. Hallelujah.

Yes, good one.

Other hymns in the Odes of Solomon seem to know of the cross e.g.

ODE 42

I extended my hands and approached my Lord, for the expansion of my hands is His sign.
And my extension is the upright cross, that was lifted up on the way of the Righteous One.
And I became useless to those who knew me not, because I shall hide myself from those who possessed me not.
And I will be with those who love me.
All my persecutors have died, and they sought me, they who declared against me, because I am living.
Then I arose and am with them, and will speak by their mouths.
For they have rejected those who persecute them; and I threw over them the yoke of my love.
Like the arm of the bridegroom over the bride, so is my yoke over those who know me.
And as the bridal chamber is spread out by the bridal pair's home, so is my love by those who believe in me.
I was not rejected although I was considered to be so, and I did not perish although they thought it of me.
Sheol saw me and was shattered, and Death ejected me and many with me.
I have been vinegar and bitterness to it, and I went down with it as far as its depth.
Then the feet and the head it released, because it was not able to endure my face.
And I made a congregation of living among his dead; and I spoke with them by living lips; in order that my word may not be unprofitable.
And those who had died ran towards me; and they cried out and said, Son of God, have pity on us.
And deal with us according to Your kindness, and bring us out from the bonds of darkness.
And open for us the door by which we may come out to You; for we perceive that our death does not touch You.
May we also be saved with You, because You are our Savior.
Then I heard their voice, and placed their faith in my heart.
And I placed my name upon their head, because they are free and they are mine.
Hallelujah.

Andrew Criddle

andrewcriddle wrote: ↑Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:15 amOther hymns in the Odes of Solomon seem to know of the cross e.g. ....

I do not know Syriac, but the footnotes in the two translations I have consulted say that "cross" may also be "wood" or "tree" (which would remind me more of ξύλον than of σταυρός). I am not entirely sure what to make of the Odes yet, both on that score and on others.

Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:14 am

andrewcriddle wrote: ↑Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:15 amOther hymns in the Odes of Solomon seem to know of the cross e.g. ....

I do not know Syriac, but the footnotes in the two translations I have consulted say that "cross" may also be "wood" or "tree" (which would remind me more of ξύλον than of σταυρός). I am not entirely sure what to make of the Odes yet, both on that score and on others.

The idea seems to involve hands spread out in the form of a cross. See also Ode 27

I extended my hands and hallowed my Lord,
For the expansion of my hands is His sign.
And my extension is the upright cross.
Hallelujah.

Andrew Criddle

andrewcriddle wrote: ↑Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:22 am

Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:14 am

andrewcriddle wrote: ↑Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:15 amOther hymns in the Odes of Solomon seem to know of the cross e.g. ....

I do not know Syriac, but the footnotes in the two translations I have consulted say that "cross" may also be "wood" or "tree" (which would remind me more of ξύλον than of σταυρός). I am not entirely sure what to make of the Odes yet, both on that score and on others.

The idea seems to involve hands spread out in the form of a cross. See also Ode 27

I extended my hands and hallowed my Lord,
For the expansion of my hands is His sign.
And my extension is the upright cross.
Hallelujah.

Andrew Criddle

Yes, that posture was the basis of my speculation here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3149.

robert j wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:26 pm

Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:28 pm The notion has occurred to me that, before Paul, perhaps Jesus' mode of death had something to do with a tree, but was not crucifixion per se. Perhaps the cause of death was more direct (like stabbing or stoning or some such), and his corpse was then displayed on a tree in a sort of fulfillment of Deuteronomy 21.23. ...

Is it possible that Paul is the one who turned some other kind of death into crucifixion?

I think it was Paul himself who thought the mode of death had something to do with a stake or tree, but was not crucifixion per se.

Ben,

For the sake of time, I’m going to try to boil-down the issues here. I know we are not going to agree on the nature (or existence) of pre-Paul believers in a Jesus Christ --- so I’ll leave that discussion for, perhaps, another time.

Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:40 am I think it is pretty clear that Paul thought of crucifixion as the mode of death for Jesus:

2 Corinthians 13.4 ...

I could question your use of 2 Corinthians 13.4 in that regard, but it would take too many words to debate an issue that is not central to my interest here. Yes, Philippians 2:8 (θανάτου δὲ σταυροῦ) “death on a cross/stake”, or perhaps “death of a cross/stake” does seem to imply the stake as the mode of death --- but I (for one) would not want to hang my hat on that problematic phrase for a variety of reasons, some of which you have already alluded to. But again, any further discussion of those issues (on my part) will have to wait until another time.

However, for my working premise of Paul and his system, it doesn’t really matter whether Paul believed that his Jesus Christ was killed by stoning or by some other means then hung on a stake for further humiliation, or whether he was humiliated and then impaled alive on a stake and left to die.

The point that I am focused on here is one for which you have expressed some ambivalence (here with Paul’s use of Deuteronomy in Galatians 3:13) ---

Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:40 am
... It really does not matter whether the cross was envisioned absolutely as a Roman cross (though, once the mode of death has been specified as a cross, why not?); my point is that the original connection of the curse with a tree is not death by crucifixion:

Deuteronomy 21.22-23 ....

... That is another mode of death (like stoning), followed by the hanging of the corpse on a tree or gibbet for the sake of onlookers. But I think Paul has specified that the death itself was on a cross or stake or what have you (θανάτου δὲ σταυροῦ)...

I think the point I want to make again is relevant to the question you posed in the OP, at least in terms of the image evoked by the terminology ---

Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:28 pm
What do you think? Is it possible that Paul is the one who turned some other kind of death into crucifixion?

Without the benefit of the stories in the NT Gospels --- using only the Paul’s letters --- can one clearly determine the nature of Paul’s “cross/stake”, or his “was crucified/was staked” ---

--- was he referring to a Roman style crucifixion?

--- or was he referring to a stake used to hang a dead body or a stake on which a person was impaled (or otherwise attached) and left to die in humiliation?

robert j wrote: ↑Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:01 pmWithout the benefit of the stories in the NT Gospels --- using only the Paul’s letters --- can one clearly determine the nature of Paul’s “cross/stake”, or his “was crucified/was staked” ---

--- was he referring to a Roman style crucifixion?

--- or was he referring to a stake used to hang a dead body or a stake on which a person was impaled (or otherwise attached) and left to die in humiliation?

My response to this framing of the question is: no, I cannot tell from Paul's epistles themselves which of these two options he intended, but that is because I cannot tell the difference in Paul's epistles between a Roman crucifixion and being left to die on a cross/stake. So I choose to frame the question differently: was Paul referring (A) either to a Roman style crucifixion or to being left to die on a cross/stake (both options being prae morte), or was he referring (B) to Jesus' already dead corpse being hung on a cross/stake (this option being post mortem)? To this question I think we can give a probable answer: Paul's Jesus died on the cross; he did not die before being placed there. This does not automatically make his crucifixion a Roman style one, with all the trimmings, but it does make it a different kind of crucifixion than the one described in Deuteronomy 21.22-23. And that, for me, raises the question: was Paul the first one to make the leap from a post mortem crucifixion to a prae morte crucifixion, or did he have predecessors (potentially including predecessors who knew of a real, historical crucifixion from which both he and his fellow Christians drew their details)?