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Re: How do we know the ancient Romans didn’t destroy most of the evidence for Jesus?

Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 7:08 pm
by MrMacSon
DCHindley wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:55 pm
The secret is, a special agent of the yet to come perfect Communist utopia ...
Comrade !! :cheers:

DCHindley wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:55 pm However, the biggest unforeseen consequence for the future Utopians, was that this upset the balance of power and the new North Americans, who with the help of other nations, put such pressure on the Soviet state that it collapsed in 1991 before the Soviet Utopia could be established, and the Utopia at that point simply vanished, because it had been rendered impossible.
Comraaaade ?? :scratch:

Re: How do we know the ancient Romans didn’t destroy most of the evidence for Jesus?

Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:07 pm
by DCHindley
MrMacSon wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2017 7:08 pm
DCHindley wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:55 pm
The secret is, a special agent of the yet to come perfect Communist utopia ...
Comrade !! :cheers:

DCHindley wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:55 pm However, the biggest unforeseen consequence for the future Utopians, was that this upset the balance of power and the new North Americans, who with the help of other nations, put such pressure on the Soviet state that it collapsed in 1991 before the Soviet Utopia could be established, and the Utopia at that point simply vanished, because it had been rendered impossible.
Comraaaade ?? :scratch:
Well, as they say, sh!t happens!

:eek:

Re: How do we know the ancient Romans didn’t destroy most of the evidence for Jesus?

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:35 am
by Charles Wilson
DCHindley wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:55 pmThe secret is, a special agent of the yet to come perfect Communist utopia volunteered to go back in time, using a time machine yet to be invented in order to plant maize kernels developed in a lab in their "skunk works," into the Americas, thus changing history.

DCH :facepalm:

Great stuff, DCH.

Truth is stranger than diction. You can find articles on the 'Net that attempt to show that Stalin was a Capitalist (!!!!!). All the death and destruction came upon the Soviet Union because Lenin was too kind and Stalin wanted to turn the Communist March of Progress into a Slush Fund for the Joo Bankers.

The mind boggles.

Anything to redirect the argument.
***
To bring the discussion a bit back to the OP:

Mark 3: 1 - 6 (RSV):

[1] Again he entered the synagogue, and a man was there who had a withered hand.
[2] And they watched him, to see whether he would heal him on the sabbath, so that they might accuse him.
[3] And he said to the man who had the withered hand, "Come here."
[4] And he said to them, "Is it lawful on the sabbath to do good or to do harm, to save life or to kill?" But they were silent.
[5] And he looked around at them with anger, grieved at their hardness of heart, and said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." He stretched it out, and his hand was restored.
[6] The Pharisees went out, and immediately held counsel with the Hero'di-ans against him, how to destroy him.

It wasn't just the Romans who destroyed evidence. Here the Herodians are suppressing the Scribes about Something that Happened. "Jesus" is telling them, "Scribes, you are free to write of what you know again." Sorta' like Khrushchev and the anti-Cult of Personality Speech.
Why should we be surprised?

SOP.

Re: How do we know the ancient Romans didn’t destroy most of the evidence for Jesus?

Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:15 pm
by archibald
DCHindley wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:24 pm This is actually a pretty serious issue.

I am pretty sure that in Antiquities 18 the events in the governorships of Valerius Gratus and Pontius Pilate have been tampered with (the lengths of their respective periods of office were changed, and probably events removed) in order to remove any possibility that the "Memoirs of Pilate" (Acta Pilati, purporting to be excerpts of P. Pilate's personal Commentarii(sp?), or note-book in which all good Roman public officials with juridical powers recorded their official acts and edicts as they happened, and published by flatterers of the Caesar Maximinus Daia in Asia Minor somewhere around 305 CE, could be authentic.

Those Memoirs, whether truly or falsely, specifically dates the events pertaining to Jesus to 19 21 CE. So, by changing chronology which originally limited Gratus' rule to 15-19 CE before being replaced by Pilate around 18-19 CE, making them each have 10 or 11 years of governorship, the redactor of Ant. 18 made it impossible for Pilate to have been the governor in 19 21 CE.

Since these memoir-books were not public documents but the governor's personal property, the question has to be asked: Could Maximinus' flatterers have actually obtained access to them to copy out excerpts? Pilate had been sent into exile Gaul around 37 CE. His family would likely have inherited any wealth he may have been allowed to retain from his period of governorship, but the surviving records do not tell us anything about his household after the exile. That area was under the command of the Augustus or Caesar of that region.

The rulers of the Tetrarchies were always at war with one another, coming and going, with the boundaries of their fiefdoms changing constantly as they pushed their way around to impose control, forming all sorts of alliances reaching across the empire. While free trade between quadrants was guaranteed by the Tetrarchy system, and seems to have been respected by all parties with few exceptions, it would be hard for political operatives to have worked openly to seek out stuff like Pilate's memoirs. AND, to make it more bizarre, Eusebius suggests that Max.'s flatterers also claimed to have got a copy of Jesus' own memoirs, as if he was a royal contender like the Hasmonean prince Antigonus II was when he rebelled against Herod's appointment as a Roman client king. Whatever these memoirs are purported to have said about Jesus, they were apparently not very flattering (in Roman terms).

But if they didn't, or couldn't, find the household and talk their way into a look at them, Max.'s flatterers could then just as well fabricated them to justify a crack-down on Christians in Max.'s quadrant of the Tetrarchy at that time. Christians were then what Muslims are today in the minds of the prejudiced - mindless or worse yet scheming fanatics who want to destroy "proper" society as it stood in Asia Minor & Syria, Max.'s Tetrarchy. Of course(tm) Christianity had long before then morphed into the mystery religion we know and love today, but it seems that they were upset by the charges that they were at heart revolutionaries with a radical social agenda.

Either way, to redact the text of the works of a published writer and pass it off as the unaltered version, I think would have required the authority and resources of Constantine himself once he claimed the regions of Rome and Gallia in 313 CE., or perhaps the entire empire around 324 CE. I mean, the support of Christians like Eusebius of Caesarea was that important for him.

That is pretty heavy stuff!! I figure that if someone could go to that extent to make something historical (or at least legendary/mythical) just "go away" :tombstone: then anything in the rest of Josephus' works that describes/dates events related to how Christians wanted their origins to be perceived, is open for question.

DCH

Edit, the date that the Acta attribute to Jesus' death was 21 CE, not 19 CE. 19 CE is apparently the date when Pilate was appointed governor in the unedited text of Josephus.
To add to this....do the passages in Antiquities after the TF relate to events around 19-21CE? The expulsion of Jews from Rome by Tiberius comes after and wasn't it in 19CE?

Re: How do we know the ancient Romans didn’t destroy most of the evidence for Jesus?

Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:36 pm
by DCHindley
archibald wrote: Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:15 pm
DCHindley wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:24 pm This is actually a pretty serious issue.

...

I figure that if someone could go to that extent to make something historical (or at least legendary/mythical) just "go away" :tombstone: then anything in the rest of Josephus' works that describes/dates events related to how Christians wanted their origins to be perceived, is open for question.
To add to this....do the passages in Antiquities after the TF relate to events around 19-21CE? The expulsion of Jews from Rome by Tiberius comes after and wasn't it in 19CE?
Yes, It was Robert Eisler who drew attention to this , and the Mundus & Paulina episode in the early 1930s (in The Messiah Jesus & John the Baptist, 1933, the abbreviated single volume E.T., by Alexander Krappe, to his German Language Iesous Basileus ou Basileusas, 2 vols. 1929-30), as a bit odd considering these two sets of events occurred somewhere around 19 CE (offhand I do not have the exact dates).
vii AUTHOR' S PREFACE

THE present work is fundamentally different in method, scope, and outlook from any 'Life of Christ' or any other book dealing with Christian origins, or any 'History of the Jewish People in the Time of Jesus,' that I know of. For it claims to show: -

First. That there once existed a rich fund of historical tradition about the Messiah Jesus both among the Jews and the non-Christian Greeks and Romans.

Second. That this precious material was deliberately destroyed, or falsified, by a system of rigid censorship officially authorized ever since the time of Constantine I. and reinstituted in the reigns of Theodosius II. and Valentinian III. (477 A.D.) .

Third. That, in spite of the tireless efforts of ecclesiastical revisers, enough has been preserved in certain out-of-the-way corners of the world, among Jews and heretics as well as in quotations occurring in Christian polemic and apologetic literature, to allow us to reconstruct with sufficient clarity and plausibility, and even with a certain amount of picturesque detail, the fundamental features of Jesus' personality and his mission, particularly as they appeared to his enemies.

Fourth. That through a careful comparison of this mercilessly cold, detached, and unsympathetic pen-portrait of the man Jesus with the naïvely idealizing presentation of the Kyrios Christos by the writers of the early and later Christian Church, it is possible to come quite close to the historical truth about the Naṣōraean prophet-king and about his elder relative, the schismatic high priest of the Jews, Joḫanan 'the Hidden One,' better known as the Baptist.

It is thus my claim that a history of Christian origins-more exactly, of the Naṣōraean Messianist movement-can be written which will chronologically coincide with the history of the Jews and the Romans from 4 B.C. to A.D. 135-that is, from the first appearance of Joḫanan to the downfall of Bar-Kokheba.

[viii] In face of the prevalent historical scepticism 1 and the Neo-Marcionite subjectivism of certain critics, who claim for themselves the right to disregard any evidence in the Gospels which conflicts with their own preconceived picture of Jesus,2 the present work represents a radical departure. For I claim no such right. I refuse to reject from among the documentary materials this or that statement as 'unworthy' of Jesus' personality and his mission. On the contrary, I humbly and honestly accept whatever I find in the sources, duly weighing the evidence when there is conflict or contradiction, unless indeed the trustworthiness of a given source is disproved by facts quite independent of any judgment of values.

1 The best example is the Jesus of Prof. Rudolf Bultmann, published in Berlin in 1925.
2 Few modern authors will admit this as frankly as honest Max Müller in his time, who said (Chips from a German Workshop: On the Proper Use of Holy Scriptures), after praising as a blessing the fact that Jesus left no written record of his teaching: 'Because, whenever the spirit of truth within us protests against certain statements in the Gospels as unworthy of the high character of the founders of this religion, we can claim the same liberty which even the ancients claimed with regard to the fables told of their gods, namely, that nothing could be true that was unworthy of the gods.'


'As it is now,' said Max Muller, 'it is always open to us to say, whenever we read of anything that is incredible or unworthy of Christ, as we conceive him,3 that it came from his disciples, who confessedly had often failed to understand him, or that it was added by those who handed down the tradition before it was written down.4 ... The true interests of the Christian religion are better served by showing how much time and how many opportunities there were for human misunderstandings to creep into the Gospel story.'

3 Italics mine.
4 This is-avant la lettre-the whole of the new 'formgeschichtliche Methode' !


It seems to me that it is not the business of the historian, quite unconcerned as he is with questions of apologetics, to discredit, on what after all are apologetic grounds, sources fully as good or fully as bad as any ordinary source bearing on profane history. Everywhere tendencies can be detected to a certain extent and therefore must be discounted in a certain measure. The nature of the material being the same, the methods of utilizing it should logically be the same.

If one were timidly to disregard all sources which show a certain tendency one way or other, it would mean a negation of all history-writing; and if the maxim be adopted that the scientific accuracy [ix] of a historian's work is in direct proportion to the depth of his scepticism, we should inevitably end with the neo-Pyrrhonist doctrine that we cannot know anything at all about the past of humanity.

I am fully aware of the fact that every single bit of evidence presented in the following pages can be frittered away and made to crumble into dust by the simple application of certain widely practised methods of criticism and exegesis. Let me say that I am not at all ignorant of these methods. Alas! I have tried again and again these two-edged, over-sharpened tools, only to find them ineffective in the end. Any student who, through sheer inability to synthetize the mass of his evidence, prefers to carry analysis to the length of hair-splitting, and who will go on for ever weighing undecidedly all the possibilities that might come under consideration, will be thoroughly antagonized by the present book, without presumably deriving much profit from it. That I cannot help. I have been working and writing for those who are as convinced as I am myself that no explanation of a single fact is satisfactory which cannot be made to fit into some plausible consecutive scheme enabling us to account for the totality of facts and phenomena- for those who feel that we cannot go on for ever with our traditional histories of New Testament times, into which a life of Jesus cannot be made to fit, and with lives and characteristics of Jesus which cannot be made to fit into the contemporary history of Jews and Romans. To those readers I hope that the new sources, analysed and utilized in this volume, will come as a relief and a genuine intellectual satisfaction.

I sincerely believe that nothing in this book can possibly give offence to a true Christian-that is, a true believer in the deeply rooted messianic hopes of humanity. Yet it may cause somewhat of a startling shock to those whom Bernard Shaw has pertinently called Christian idolaters, defenders of an idolatrous or iconolatrous worship of the Christ-to people, that is, who are only concerned with the traditional pictures and statues of Jesus and the pretty stories attached to him.1

1 Preface to Androcles and the Lion.

'If you speak or write of Jesus as a real live person or even as a still active God, such worshippers are more horrified than Don Juan was when the statue stepped from its pedestal and came to supper with him. You may deny the divinity of Jesus, you may doubt [x] whether he ever existed, you may reject Christianity for Judaism, Mohametism, Shintoism , or Fire Worship, and the iconolaters, placidly contemptuous, will only classify you as a freethinker or a heathen. But if you venture to wonder how Christ ... looked or what size he stood 1 in his shoes ... or even if you tell any part of his story in the vivid terms of modern colloquial slang, you will produce an extraordinary dismay and horror among the iconolaters. You will have made the picture come out of its frame, the statue descend from its pedestal, the story become real, with all the incalculable consequences that may flow from this terrifying miracle. It is at such moments that you realize that the iconolaters have never for a moment conceived Jesus as a real person, who meant what he said, as a fact, as a force like electricity, only needing the invention of suitable political machinery to be applied to the affairs of mankind with revolutionary effect. Thus it is not disbelief that is dangerous in our society ; it is belief. The moment it strikes you (as it may any day) that Jesus is not the lifeless, harmless image he has hitherto been to you, but a rallying centre for revolutionary influence, which all established States and Churches fight, you must look to yourselves, for you have brought the image to life, and the mob may not be able to stand that horror.'

1 Italics mine. See below, p. 427n20

As to 'colloquial slang,' the reader will, I hope, find nothing of the sort either in the German original or in the English translation. Yet I have not refrained from applying, wherever it seemed required, the terminology of modern political ideology and sociology, in order to make it quite clear to the reader that the social and political problems of those times are fundamentally identical with those of the present epoch, notwithstanding the differences which; after all, separate that period and civilization from our own. It is this which, I fear, will shock more profoundly than the unveiling of the quaint contemporary pen-portrait of the Naṣōraean Messiah all those who want to convert, and have in part succeeded in converting, churches and chapels into a world-wide organization for the effective repression of the very tendencies for which the Jewish prophet-king suffered and died.

It has been suggested, and will doubtless be suggested again, that this work is itself inspired by a revolutionary Messianist tendency. To this accusation I can only say that I wish it were true. I wish I could honestly plead guilty to being moved in the depths of my conscience by the most powerful religious impulses of my race. Yet for the sake of plain truth I must own that in the unravelling of the mysterious history of this movement I was actuated almost exclusively by a boundless curiosity and a [xi] passionate desire to get at the real truth of this maze of documents, authentic and spurious, falsified in part or altogether forged.

The main difficulty of the presentation lay in the fact that a discussion of the events cannot be separated from a discussion of the sources. A large and expensive volume dealing exclusively with the literary and philological problems raised by the discovery of the Slavonic, the Rumanian, and the less expurgated Hebrew versions of Josephus, could not be published in this poverty-stricken after-war period, because nobody but half a dozen specialists would read it. Still less thinkable was a simple, straightforward history of the messianic uprising and the origins of the Christian Church on the basis of the new sources, but without a thoroughgoing critical analysis of the documents. Such a volume would inevitably be mistaken for one of those biographies romancées which are turned out in our days by the dozen.

An even greater difficulty was presented by the natural desire of both author and publisher to reach both the scholar and the so-called general reader. To justify my theses as far as possible before the forum of the learned critics, I had to include much documentary material which may possibly not interest any one but specialists. Still, to ensure that this book should not attain the unwieldy proportions of the German original, I had to omit practically all of the critical discussion devoted to the previous literature on the subject.1 The logical argument, it is hoped, has not suffered thereby. Yet if any objections should present themselves to the learned reader, he is requested to look into the German original before starting an argument which has possibly already been definitely disposed of there.

1 I regret even more the forced omission of a systematic exposition of the Oriental origins and the Jewish development of political Messianism, a subject I hope to deal with in the form of a separate volume some time in the future.

To the general reader, who would probably prefer a less cumbersome book, I venture to offer a few suggestions which may perhaps be resented as superfluous by expert skippers, but may be of some value to those who still follow the time-honoured and certainly praiseworthy custom of beginning a book at the beginning. Such readers might not unprofitably begin by looking at Pl. VI. and Pl. VII. They will see there without any difficulty the demonstratio ad oculos of my general thesis regarding the ruthless censorship applied to all sources discussing Christianity and its [xii] founder from a non-Christian point of view. If they will then tum to p. 594, App. IV., they will find the proof that all anti-Christian literature was hunted down systematically from the fourth century on. Having thus caught a glimpse of this process of deletion of words, phrases, and whole sections, and duly noted on Pl. VIII. and Pl. XI. that our chief authority, Flavius Josephus, did not fare any better under the hands of the ecclesiastical censors, the reader may be prepared to admit that the standard texts of the Jewish War and the Antiquities may after all not contain everything that Josephus meant to convey to his Jewish and Gentile readers. Having got thus far, he may now be ready for a look at the newly reconstructed texts on pp. 62 and 466ff., and for an unprejudiced reading of the striking statements printed in these chapters.

As likely as not, he will then ask on whose authority he is expected to accept as sound historical facts such surprising and, for many readers, shocking statements. The answer to that question is given in the chapters about Flavius Josephus, his life and work.1 Very probably, after reading the man's edifying biography, the reader will not care to trust him 2 without further checks and verifications. Yet by turning to the Introduction (pp. 9 ff.) he will find that the general view which he takes of Jesus Christ is shared by all ancient non-Christian authors of whose writings we still have a few fragments. He will see, moreover, on pp. 201 ff. that Flavius Josephus-unworthy indeed of any trust whenever his own interests come into play-throughout his work used first-hand evidence, that is, contemporary official documents. Having been so often told that there never were any legal documents about the trial of Jesus, the reader may be surprised to learn (on pp. 13 ff.) that detailed records of this famous case must have existed, and in fact did subsist down to A.D. 311, when they were broadcast in hundreds of copies by the imperial chancery of Rome. By what silly-clever forgeries these genuine Acts of Pilate have been discredited after A.D. 312 for more than 1500 years, I have endeavoured to show on pp. 17 ff. If by this time the reader has become [xiii] more interested in all the forgeries, simple and complicated, resorted to by apologetic ingenuity in order to convert the writings of the unbelieving Jew Josephus into a huge edifying Testimonium Flavianum for the essential truth of the Athanasian creed, let him now turn to pp. 425 ff., where he will find in parallel columns the genuine pen-portrait derived from the official 'hue-and-cry' of the Messiah Jesus, and the idealizing corrections applied to this startling text by the Christian revisers. If he still doubts the authenticity of the description printed on the left side of p. 427, let him turn to p. 416 f. and satisfy himself how exactly this signalement tallies with certain hitherto enigmatic passages in the Gospels and with a number of patristic witnesses on the shortness and uncomeliness of Jesus' 'servile body,' spoken of by Paul. Thus introduced, though as in a mirror darkly, yet almost face to face, to this great prophet and king of the Jews, the reader will now be eager to turn to the history of the world-shattering movement in which he was destined to play such a dominant part.

1 Below, pp. 22-35·
2 These words were already in type when Dr. Burton Scott Easton wrote at the end of a fair and courteous review of the German edition of this book in the Anglican Theological Review of 1930: 'Dr. Eisler's estimate of Josephus' truthfulness and objectivity is as low as is conceivably possible . ... What conceivable right has Dr. Eisler, then, to use his anti-Christian evidence ... as ... infallible?' My answer to this legitimate question has been given by anticipation in the lines which follow.


No doubt he had best begin, as do Josephus and the Gospels, with the 'Forerunner.'1 Yet any reader shunning as yet the more arduous task of reading the consecutive historical narrative is invited to read the concluding chapter on pp. 562ff., where I have tried to present, as concisely as possible, the main outlines of this most startling history. If eager for the details, the reader may now turn to the story of Joḫanan the Hidden One or the Baptist, the revolutionary and schismatic high priest 2 of the year 4 B.C., who outlived Jesus by fourteen years; he may read on to the story of the three messiah kings, Judas, Simon, and Athronga, who answered his call; and finally he may follow the career of the Baptist's erstwhile disciple, the Naṣōraean Jesus,3 who died on the cross for the liberation of his people from the Roman yoke, the rulers of this world, in the night from the 15th to the 16th of April of the year A.D. 21.

1 Below, pp. 223 ff.
2 Below, pp. 259 ff.
3 Below, pp. 312 ff.


I am aware that a good many of my readers, accustomed to the traditional accounts, will consider the thesis here proposed as a gigantic paradox. This cannot very well be helped. I am simply and honestly concerned with what appears to me to be the essential truth for which we have been searching ever since the beginnings of Unitarianism in the sixteenth century and rationalistic Deism in the eighteenth. The 'thoroughgoing eschatological' exegesis [xiv] of the Gospels has led us up to the threshold of the gate which was finally thrown open to Western scholarship by Alexander Berendts of Dorpat as early as 1906. For twenty years no one has cared to walk into this hitherto unexplored field, where a good deal still remains to be done.

I should like to conclude with a word of sincere gratitude to all those who have so generously given me their material and scholarly help, without which I could not have undertaken and after many years of hard work carried through such an arduous task. First and foremost my unstinted thanks are due to Mrs. Alice Chalmers and Dr. James Loeb, who defrayed the huge cost of several thousand photostats of the various MSS.; to the former President of the Russian Academy of Sciences, Prof. Sergius von Oldenbourg, for procuring the necessary permits from his Government; to Prof. Benesevic for superintending the photographer's work and for much useful information; to Prof. Vasilij N. Istrin of the Russian Academy for various apographa from Slavonic Josephus MSS.; to Prof. Andre Mazon and his pupils MM. Antoine Martel and Boris Unbegaun of the Paris Institut des Etudes Slaves; to Prof£. Nikolas van Wyck and Berndt von Arnim of Leyden, and Prof. N . Bubnov of Kiev, now of Ljubiana, for their kind help in editing and analysing the Old Russian texts; to the Most Rev. Ḫakham Dr. Moses Gaster for the kind communication of transcripts and for a translation of the inedited Rumanian Josephus fragments, discovered by him, in his MS. 89; to the Right Rev. Grand Rabbin de France, Israel Levy, who directed my attention to the Paris Josippon MSS., and specially obliged me by copying for me a number of pages from the codex Edmond de Rothschild No. 24; to Messeigneurs Giovanni Mercati, Eugene Tisserant, and Giovanni Galbiati of the Vatican Library and of the Bibliotheca Ambrosiana for kind information and for permission to reproduce various MSS.; to Prof. Charles Boreux of the Louvre and Prof. E. Rostagno of the Laurentiana in Florence for two important illustrations; to His Excellency Baron von Oppenheim for the photograph of the Ṣlebi types; to the late Dr. H. St. John Thackeray, who in the most painstaking and conscientious manner translated about 900 printed pages of the German original; to Dr. A. Haggerty Krappe, who completed, revised, and to a large extent completely rewrote this first draft, condensing it into its present shape. It is needless to add that [xv] neither is to be held responsible in any way for any of my theories, hypotheses, or valuations. To my great pleasure, Dr. Thackeray was able to accept certain essential results of my analysis, as the reader will see for himself by studying his admirable new book, Josephus, the Man and the Historian, New York, 1929. Dr. Krappe should not be held altogether responsible for the final literary form of the work. His already difficult task has been rendered even more arduous by my repeated additions to the text. Mr. Theodor Gaster has much obliged me by his kind help in reading the proofs and adding the last polish to the style of the translation.

And now, "καὶ ἡμεῖς [...] τρέχωμεν τὸν προκείμενον ἡμῖν ἀγῶνα" (Heb. xii. 1), which means, I believe, if translated from the stately and altogether admirable language of King James's Bible into a plain and more prosaic modern English, something like -

Let us run the gauntlet and be flogged along the line.

Robert Eisler
Paris, 1930
https://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/ ... sephus.pdf

DCH

Re: How do we know the ancient Romans didn’t destroy most of the evidence for Jesus?

Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:42 am
by neilgodfrey
Peter Kirby wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:48 am
Secret Alias wrote: Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:21 pm They did. To think otherwise is silly
When? In the mid-3rd century and early 4th century? Or are you thinking of something earlier?
And who, exactly? Or should that be "whom"?? "Ancient Romans" covers an awful lot of people from all sorts of socio-economic and political strata etc.

Re: How do we know the ancient Romans didn’t destroy most of the evidence for Jesus?

Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:35 am
by Paul the Uncertain
archibald
To add to this....do the passages in Antiquities after the TF relate to events around 19-21CE? The expulsion of Jews from Rome by Tiberius comes after and wasn't it in 19CE?
What follows the received TF is a "sandwich" (Mark might approve). The "wrapper" of the passage can be crisply dated to 19 CE, the same year as the death of Germanicus, if Tacitus (Annals 2.85) can be believed.

The wrapper opens "About the same time also another sad calamity put the Jews into disorder ..." and then resumes later with the story of some Jewish con men who exploited a Roman lady, leading to the expusion of the Jews from Rome, with thousands of them conscripted into service in Sardinia.

The meat in the sandwich opens, "... and certain shameful practices happened about the temple of Isis that was at Rome. I will now first take notice of the wicked attempt about the temple of Isis, and will then give an account of the Jewish affairs." What follows that is the "Ida" version of "Paulina and Mundus."

There's nothing in "Paulina and Mundus" that can be crisply dated. I suspect that may be because it didn't happen (it's a farce, following well-worn theatrical conventions, starting with the "clever servant" stock character, Ida, who dominates this version of the tale). Regardless, the leisurely recounted story has no Jewish characters, and Josephus doesn't mention any expulsion of followers of an Egyptian religion (and so never does explain what the misadventures of a few wealthy-but-stupid goyim have to do with the theme of his work - the best we can do is "reverse engineer" a connection from Tacitus and Suetonius).

When I discussed this problematic passage on my blog,

https://uncertaintist.wordpress.com/201 ... f-paulina/

I got a comment about the 'alternative' dating of when Pilate took office, possibly rehabilitating the sandwich's location in the received Antiquities. Alas, even if it's OK with respect to time (if Pilate was in office during 19CE after all, so at least the wrapper's date would fit), that doesn't explain the easily avoided jumping around in space, nor the complete absence of Jewish concerns from the lengthy meat of the sandwich (as we read it today).

IMO, and my personal best estimate, I suspect that Josephus didn't write any of the "meat," that what is now a wrapper was originally his whole story (that is, the Jewish expulsion and conscription because of a few Jewish con men), and that the story wasn't placed within the Pilate series, but rather just before that, immediately following the death of Germanicus material (that is, about 600 words earlier than where we now find it).

Re: How do we know the ancient Romans didn’t destroy most of the evidence for Jesus?

Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:48 am
by archibald
DCHindley wrote: Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:36 pm
Yes, It was Robert Eisler who drew attention to this , and the Mundus & Paulina episode in the early 1930s (in The Messiah Jesus & John the Baptist, 1933, the abbreviated single volume E.T., by Alexander Krappe, to his German Language Iesous Basileus ou Basileusas, 2 vols. 1929-30), as a bit odd considering these two sets of events occurred somewhere around 19 CE (offhand I do not have the exact dates).
It is slightly puzzling.

As I posted in another thread, it has been said that there are (pretty much) 'missing years' in both Antiquities and Wars, supposedly between 6CE and up to 26CE. The exception, it is said, being the list of procurators in Antiquities.

I am not sure if this is correct. Nor do I know if it would be unusual (in other words, even if there is a paucity for those years, I don't know if it would be stand-out-like-a-sore-thumb unusual for Josephus if, for example, nothing much happened in that time).

But I would be curious to know if the missing-years claim has any merit.

Re: How do we know the ancient Romans didn’t destroy most of the evidence for Jesus?

Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:08 am
by archibald
Throwing something else into the mix.....

Here is a detailed paper suggesting a possible re-dating of Pilate's tenure back to 19CE on the basis of new archeological/numismatic/metallurgical evidence:

http://www.academia.edu/8296217/The_Chr ... %B6nnqvist


I remember reading this paper a few years ago.

There are, I think, 9 coins for Gratus (Pilate's predecessor). 8 of them are dated between 15 and 19CE. Then there is a gap and one coin is dated 24/25CE, then there are 3 Pilate coins dated 29-32CE.

As far as I can recall, the lone 24/25CE Gratus coin is questioned in that paper, amongst other issues.

Here is a page illustrating the chronology of the coins:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/coi ... rocurators

Re: How do we know the ancient Romans didn’t destroy most of the evidence for Jesus?

Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:22 am
by archibald
Paul the Uncertain wrote: Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:35 am I got a comment about the 'alternative' dating of when Pilate took office, possibly rehabilitating the sandwich's location in the received Antiquities. Alas, even if it's OK with respect to time (if Pilate was in office during 19CE after all, so at least the wrapper's date would fit), that doesn't explain the easily avoided jumping around in space, nor the complete absence of Jewish concerns from the lengthy meat of the sandwich (as we read it today).

IMO, and my personal best estimate, I suspect that Josephus didn't write any of the "meat," that what is now a wrapper was originally his whole story (that is, the Jewish expulsion and conscription because of a few Jewish con men), and that the story wasn't placed within the Pilate series, but rather just before that, immediately following the death of Germanicus material (that is, about 600 words earlier than where we now find it).
Thanks.

Looking at the table on your blog which shows the current and chronological orders, would the current order not still work if Pilate's time in office started at 19CE?

This would seem to require the 'image bearing standards', 'financing the waterworks' and the TF passages to be assigned 19CE or thereabouts.

By the way, you don't, by any chance, know of a similar table showing the chronology of Josephus' works? I mean something similar to your table, where established dates are set alongside the texts.

Also, I have heard it said that Josephus is not strictly chronological, that he not unusually hops about in time. I am not familiar enough to assess this, but it might be a relevant consideration. If for example we had a writer who hops about and digresses (or pairs incidents for reasons other than their temporal sequence) then it might mean that we are kidding ourselves when reconstructing or rearranging Josephus.