Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

Bernard Muller wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:28 pm Still no demons and no archangels.

Celsius confutes you beyond any doubt:


So Jesus was an Angel for both catholics and heretics in 2 century. The probability that Jesus was an Angel for Paul too can only increase.

Here you can see how prof Hurtado is a real apologist, when he denies that Jesus is an Angel in Paul.

Bernard Muller wrote:

But in Ro 13:3, these archontes can be identified as Roman authorities. I rather search in the Pauline epistles for the meaning of a word than in apocryphal literature. There is no evidence that Paul dug up in that kind of texts.
In Galatians, Jesus is also born of woman as a Jew, and a descendant of Abraham. And that's not implied.

I don't know where you're getting this from. Galatians does not say, hint, or imply that Jesus was born of a woman. Instead there a couple of implications that it is Paul who is reborn into the New Covenant.

Observe:

emphasis added

Verse fifteen in the Greek reads thus:


It is Paul who is seemingly born to receive the Gospel of Christ solely. Indeed, no where in the authentic (read, Marcionite) rescission is Christ ever said to be born at all. The focus is always on Paul and how it is he especially chosen to be the Apostle.

Follow this up with Galatians 4:21-31:


Now going along with the Marcionite understanding, it was Christ who was sacrificed to free men from the Law. So who is it who is first to be born free?

Paul.

Now read John 3:1-8 with that in mind:


As has been noted by Ehrman and others, John contains a play on words for again and above, thus allowing the verse to read "unless one is born from above". And where does Paul receive his revelation? According to 2Cor and ApocPaul...

... in Heaven.

So Paul is (re)born in Heaven under the New Covenant, and free from the old.

Giuseppe wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:38 am
I think that you should use a better meaning for "earth" in your same words: demons can't leave the sublunar realm (not only the mere earth).
They will be destroyed there. Ephesians 6:12 makes my same point:

For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms

Frankly, to interpret Paul I would base myself more on the words of who wanted to talk under his false name (like Ephesians or Colossians but not the Pastorals), more than on the DSS.

As I said it is complicated.
There is a difference between demons and angels as I already addressed.
Paul is aware of this.
The Book of Enoch was a source known and used by Paul.
I think we should now consider what Enoch is saying about the fate of angels.

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Book of Enoch, XXI
....2. And I saw there something horrible: I saw neither a heaven above nor a firmly founded earth, but a place chaotic and horrible. 3. And there I saw seven stars of the heaven bound together in it, like great mountains and burning with fire. 4. Then I said: 'For what sin are they bound, and on what account have they been cast in hither?' 5. Then said Uriel, one of the holy angels, who was with me, and was chief over them, and said: 'Enoch, why dost thou ask, and why art thou eager for the truth? 6. These are of the number of the stars ⌈of heaven⌉, which have transgressed the commandment of the Lord, and are bound here till ten thousand years, the time entailed by their sins, are consummated.' 7. And from thence I went to another place, which was still more horrible than the former, and I saw a horrible thing: a great fire there which burnt and blazed, and the place was cleft as far as the abyss, being full of great descending columns of fire: neither its extent or magnitude could I see, nor could I conjecture. 8. Then I said: 'How fearful is the place and how terrible to look upon!' 9. Then Uriel answered me, one of the holy angels who was with me, and said unto me: 'Enoch, why hast thou such fear and affright?' And I answered: 'Because of this fearful place, and because of the spectacle of the pain.' 10. And he said ⌈⌈unto me⌉⌉: 'This place is the prison of the angels, and here they will be imprisoned for ever.'

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This abyss is a place that holds heavenly angels in middle earth.
Once you re-read what Paul is saying with this new set of eyes, things come into better focus.

Sincerely,

John T

To John T.:

I Think that to interpret "I saw neither a heaven above nor a firmly founded earth, but a place chaotic and horrible" as a place on the earth (and not as the more low place of the lowest heavens between the earth and the moon) is not correct. Enoch placed the hell in the Lower Heavens, just as Plutarch.

to Joseph D. L.,

I don't know where you're getting this from. Galatians does not say, hint, or imply that Jesus was born of a woman.

Really! what do you make of Gal 4:4?

Cordially, Bernard

Giuseppe wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:35 am To John T.:

I Think that to interpret "I saw neither a heaven above nor a firmly founded earth, but a place chaotic and horrible" as a place on the earth (and not as the more low place of the lowest heavens between the earth and the moon) is not correct. Enoch placed the hell in the Lower Heavens, just as Plutarch.

Yes, it sounds a bit phantasmagoric but consistent with a pool of molten lava in middle earth. You can't see the sky but there is no firm ground either. Still, Enoch makes it clear that the entrance to this abyss is located in a valley on earth.

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Enoch XXVII

1. Then said I: 'For what object is this blessed land, which is entirely filled with trees, and this accursed valley ⌈⌈between⌉⌉?' 2. ⌈⌈Then Uriel, one of the holy angels who was with me, answered and said: 'This⌉⌉ accursed valley is for those who are accursed for ever: Here shall all ⌈the accursed⌉ be gathered together who utter with their lips against the Lord unseemly words and of His glory speak hard things.

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My point is; Carrier apparently is not aware that there are different levels of earth as well as heaven. More over, once people factor in the writings of the Dead Sea Scrolls, the difference in theology of Paul and Gnosticism/mythicistism makes much more sense.

Carrier is being too clever by half.

Sincerely,

John T

Frankly, the "valley filled with trees" seems to be in the region of air, according to Book of Enoch. The fact that the upper heaven can't be seen by there is not evidence that it is on earth. The hell by definition is a closed/claustrophobic realm.

Bernard Muller wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:34 am to Joseph D. L.,

I don't know where you're getting this from. Galatians does not say, hint, or imply that Jesus was born of a woman.

Really! what do you make of Gal 4:4?

Cordially, Bernard

A later interpolation. So I don't regard it.

Also, one thing to point out, Bernard...

Justin did hold Christ to be an Angel.

He was the Angel that appeared in the Burning Bush, as well as the pillar of smoke. At numerous points in his Dialogue, Justin equates Jesus to other angelic figures, like those who appeared to Abraham and Jacob. He even calls the Angel who appeared to Jacob Christ. So wherein Justin is concerned Jesus was an Angel.