Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

to John2,

I just can't overlook James 1:1 and 2:1 or understand why it isn't sufficient for you and Bernard. It's right there in the introduction (and in all copies of James).

And it's in a Christian canon. So it makes more sense to me for it to have been Christian from the get go.

A lot of interpolations, editing, massive additions from an original text can be in all copies. That goes for the NT and also also in the OT, sometimes in a massive scale, as my detailed study of 'Daniel' revealed to me (also 'Isaiah' & 'Job' for sure, and probably many others). For the NT, that was done also, as my detailed studies revealed on the Corinthians letters, GMark, GJohn and Revelation. We simply do not have the original manuscript, but copies made a century or more after.
Just because the text we have are canonical, that does not mean they were transmitted intact through a series of copists.

Why would a non-Christian care to rebuke Paul about works and faith?

Because James had been acquainted with Paul and James must have heard that Paul's preaching went beyond Judaism & even against the Jewish faith. So an orthodox Jew could criticize someone perceived to become a heretic (relative to Judaism) and warn other Jews.

Cordially, Bernard

Ben,

I took another look at the OP, and while the Greek is over my head, I can't get over that, as it stands (in all copies of James), regardless of however "awkward" the Greek may be and whatever one may make of it, the words "Jesus Christ" appear (twice) in James, which is more than we can say about the Shepherd of Hermas.

Yet I still view Hermas as Christian since it mentions Clement, refers to the Church and the "son of God" (in an adoptionist sense), appears to know Revelation, and was used (as far as I can tell) only by Christians. I view James in a similar light. It is by someone named James (a name used by prominent Christians), is concerned with Torah observance in addition to "faith" (like Jewish Christians were), has sayings that are similar to Jesus' in Matthew (the primary gospel used by Jewish Christians), uses the expression "the coming of the Lord" (which Paul uses in 1 Thes. 4:15, which I take as referring to Jesus too), and it is used only by Christians.

Are there any non-Christian writings from the first or second centuries CE that similarly attack Paul? I can't think of any offhand. And if there aren't, why, given the above, should we regard James as being an exception?

John2 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:19 am Ben,

I took another look at the OP, and while the Greek is over my head, I can't get over that, as it stands (in all copies of James), regardless of however "awkward" the Greek may be and whatever one may make of it, the words "Jesus Christ" appear (twice) in James, which is more than we can say about the Shepherd of Hermas.

Yet I still view Hermas as Christian since it mentions Clement, refers to the Church and the "son of God" (in an adoptionist sense), appears to know Revelation, and was used (as far as I can tell) only by Christians. I view James in a similar light. It is by someone named James (a name used by prominent Christians), is concerned with Torah observance in addition to "faith" (like Jewish Christians were), has sayings that are similar to Jesus' in Matthew (the primary gospel used by Jewish Christians), uses the expression "the coming of the Lord" (which Paul uses in 1 Thes. 4:15, which I take as referring to Jesus too), and it is used only by Christians.

The thread itself, as a whole, has dealt with most if not all of these matters. I regard the entire question as very much open, and am just presenting a possibility.

Are there any non-Christian writings from the first or second centuries CE that similarly attack Paul? I can't think of any offhand. And if there aren't, why, given the above, should we regard James as being an exception?

We do not have very many non-Christian materials dealing with Christianity in general from this early period. James may be an exception because exceptions are not ruled out by a body of material so minimal in its extent.

John, try the mental experiment suggested in this thread for yourself. Assume just for the sake of argument that 1.1 and 2.1 contain Christianizing interpolations. What remains in James that would make it Christian? Criticizing Paul cannot be enough, since sects can criticize each other. Faith is a Jewish concept, too, as well as Christian (although the latter certainly ran with it). Is there anything in James that would be incompatible, say, with at least some of the Dead Sea scrolls? Is there anything in James that would be incompatible with it hailing from the kind of Jewish sect, not itself Christian, from which Christianity sprang?

You do not want to view 1.1 and 2.1 as interpolated, and I sympathize! I get it. But this thread is about the possibility that those verses were tampered with, and also about the possible consequences of that contingency.

to John2,

Are there any non-Christian writings from the first or second centuries CE that similarly attack Paul? I can't think of any offhand. And if there aren't, why, given the above, should we regard James as being an exception?

We know that Paul was criticized or under attack by Jews and even Christians. What sources do we have to indicate or imply just that?
Paul's epistles, especially the Corinthians letters, and also 'Acts'. For examples, from the KJV:

1 Co [23] But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

1 Co 9 [1] Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?
[2] If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: ...

2 Co 10 [10] For his letters, say they, are weighty and powerful; but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible.

2 Co 11 [16] I say again, Let no man think me a fool; if otherwise, yet as a fool receive me, that I may boast myself a little.

2 Co 11 [24] Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.

2 Co 11 [5] For I suppose I was not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles.
[6] But though I be rude in speech, yet not in knowledge;...

Gal 2 [4] And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus they might bring us into bondage:

Acts 18 [12] And when Gallio was the deputy of Achaia, the Jews made insurrection with one accord against Paul, and brought him to the judgment seat,
[13] Saying, This fellow persuadeth men to worship God contrary to the law.

Cordially, Bernard

to John2,
About non-Christians criticizing Paul in the 2nd century:
Irenaeus wrote in 'Against Heresies':
Book I, ch. XXVI, 2 "They [the Ebionites] ... repudiate the Apostle Paul, maintaining that he was an apostate from the law."
Later Eusebius wrote about Ebionites in 'The History of the Church', 3, 27:
"They [the Ebionites] regarded Him [Jesus] as plain and ordinary, a man esteemed as righteous through growth of character and nothing more, the child of a normal union between a man and Mary; and they held that they must observe every detail of the Law. ..."

Cordially, Bernard

Sorry if this was already addressed but does anyone think that the “crown of life” reference in verse 12 (which seems similar to Rev. 2:10) or “the firstfruits” in verse 18 make the epistle more Christian or were these common phrases for the time period it was written?

Thanks,

Edward M. wrote: ↑Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:24 pm Sorry if this was already addressed but does anyone think that the “crown of life” reference in verse 12 (which seems similar to Rev. 2:10) or “the firstfruits” in verse 18 make the epistle more Christian or were these common phrases for the time period it was written?

Thanks,

"Crown of" terminology is found at Qumran:


"Crown of life," specifically, could possibly have come out of this sort of Jewish milieu, remaining Jewish for James and becoming Christian for Revelation.

That’s interesting about Qumran. Thanks Ben.

There are 16 occurrences of firstfruits (בִּכּוּר) in the Hebrew OT.

Cordially, Bernard