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Pythagoras, as narrated by Iamblichus, chapter 2:nightshadetwine wrote: ↑Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:35 pm Judaism, Christianity, and Egyptian that have myths of an angel or god visiting a woman and telling her she will give birth to a king, savior, or hero? I'm trying to find out if there's other ancient Near Eastern myths that have this motif. Not sure if this is the right sub-forum to post this but I figured it would get more views here.
Apollonius of Tyana is another. As per Philostratus, Book 1, chapter 4The Pythian oracle then had predicted to this Mnesarchus (who came to Delphi for the purposes of merchandize, with his wife not yet apparently pregnant, and who inquired of the God concerning the event of his voyage to Syria) that his voyage would be lucrative and most conformable to his wishes, but that his wife was now pregnant, and would bring forth a son surpassing in beauty and wisdom all that ever lived, and who would be of the greatest advantage to the human race in every thing pertaining to the life of man.
To his mother, just before he was born, there came an apparition of Proteus, who changes his form so much in Homer, in the guise of an Egyptian demon. She was in no way frightened, but asked him what sort of child she would bear. And he answered : "Myself." "And who are you? " she asked. " Proteus," answered he, "the god of Egypt." Well, I need hardly explain to readers of the poets the quality of Proteus and his reputation as regards wisdom ; how versatile he was, and for ever changing his form, and defying capture, and how he had the reputation of knowing both past and future. And we must bear Proteus in. mind all the more, when my advancing story shews its hero to have been more of a prophet than Proteus....
Read the rest of Plutarch's bio and you'll see other similar myths, or at least half-way to the one you are looking for.Some say, Roma, daughter of the Trojan lady above mentioned, was married to Latinus, Telemachus's son, and became mother to Romulus; others that Aemilia, daughter of Aeneas and Lavinia, had him by the god Mars; and others give you mere fables of his origin. For to Tarchetius, they say, king of Alba, who was a most wicked and cruel man, there appeared in his own house a strange vision, a male figure that rose out of a hearth, and stayed there for many days. There was an oracle of Tethys in Tuscany which Tarchetius consulted, and received an answer that a virgin should give herself to the apparition, and that a son should be born of her, highly renowned, eminent for valour, good fortune, and strength of body.
Philostratus is probably substantially influenced by the Gospels. There is an interesting recent argument about this hereneilgodfrey wrote: ↑Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:45 am
Apollonius of Tyana is another. As per Philostratus, Book 1, chapter 4
To his mother, just before he was born, there came an apparition of Proteus, who changes his form so much in Homer, in the guise of an Egyptian demon. She was in no way frightened, but asked him what sort of child she would bear. And he answered : "Myself." "And who are you? " she asked. " Proteus," answered he, "the god of Egypt." Well, I need hardly explain to readers of the poets the quality of Proteus and his reputation as regards wisdom ; how versatile he was, and for ever changing his form, and defying capture, and how he had the reputation of knowing both past and future. And we must bear Proteus in. mind all the more, when my advancing story shews its hero to have been more of a prophet than Proteus....
Interesting thesis. Can't help but be slightly amused by the reliance upon parallels -- can you imagine how a mythicist using the same method would be excoriated. But the differences are greater than the similarities!andrewcriddle wrote: ↑Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:33 am
Philostratus is probably substantially influenced by the Gospels. There is an interesting recent argument about this here
Andrew Criddle
andrewcriddle wrote: ↑Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:33 amPhilostratus is probably substantially influenced by the Gospels. There is an interesting recent argument about this hereneilgodfrey wrote: ↑Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:45 am
Apollonius of Tyana is another. As per Philostratus, Book 1, chapter 4To his mother, just before he was born, there came an apparition of Proteus, who changes his form so much in Homer, in the guise of an Egyptian demon. She was in no way frightened, but asked him what sort of child she would bear. And he answered : "Myself." "And who are you? " she asked. " Proteus," answered he, "the god of Egypt." Well, I need hardly explain to readers of the poets the quality of Proteus and his reputation as regards wisdom ; how versatile he was, and for ever changing his form, and defying capture, and how he had the reputation of knowing both past and future. And we must bear Proteus in. mind all the more, when my advancing story shews its hero to have been more of a prophet than Proteus....
- particularly in light of Jörg Rüpke saying in Pantheon, 2018, that there was an explosion in this sort of literature in the early-mid 2nd century and beyond (he says the Shepherd of Hermas was one of the more popular).
Flavius Philostratus of Athens (170-245 CE) ... a sophist in the court of the Severan emperors ... wrote Vita Apollonii at the behest of Septimius Severus’s Syrian wife, Julia Domna.
Andrew Mark Hagstrom: Philostratus’s Apollonius: A Case Study in Apologetics in the Roman Empire, 2016
Chapter 1
Divine Humans in Ancient Greece and Rome
WHEN I teach my introductory course on the New Testament, I tell my students that it is very difficult to know where to begin our exploration. Is it best to start with our earliest author of the New Testament, the Apostle Paul, who wrote more of the books of the New Testament than any other author? Or is it best to start with the Gospels, which, while written after Paul, discuss the life of Jesus, who lived before Paul wrote his letters? In the end I tell them that probably it is best to begin by telling the story of a highly unusual man who was born in the first century in a remote part of the Roman empire, whose life was described by his later followers as altogether miraculous.1
One Remarkable Life
Before He was born, his mother had a visitor from heaven who told her that her son would not be a mere mortal but in fact would be divine. His birth was accompanied by unusual divine signs in the heavens. As an adult he left his home to engage on an itinerant preaching ministry. He went from village to town, telling all who would listen that they should not be concerned about their earthly lives and their material goods; they should live for what was spiritual and eternal. He gathered a number of followers around him who became convinced that he was no ordinary human, but that he was the Son of God. And he did miracles to confirm them in their beliefs: he could heal the sick, cast out demons, and raise the dead. At the end of his life he aroused opposition among the ruling authorities of Rome and was put on trial. But they could not kill his soul. He ascended to heaven and continues to live there till this day. To prove that he lived on after leaving this earthly orb, he appeared again to at least one of his doubting followers, who became convinced that in fact he remains with us even now. Later, some of his followers wrote books about him, and we can still read about him today. But very few of you will have ever seen these books. And I imagine most of you do not even know who this great miracle-working Son of God was. I have been referring to a man named Apollonius, who came from the town of Tyana. He was a pagan—that is, a polytheistic worshipper of the many Roman gods—and a renowned philosopher of his day. His followers thought he was immortal. We have a book written about him by his later devotee Philostratus. Philostratus’s book was written in eight volumes in the early third century, possibly around 220 or 230 CE. He had done considerable research for his book, and his stories, he tells us, were largely based on the accounts recorded by an eyewitness and companion of Apollonius himself.
Ehrman, Bart D. (2014). How Jesus Became God: The Exaltation of a Jewish Preacher from Galilee (Kindle Locations 201-223)
This actually parallels one way of reading the account in Mark 5neilgodfrey wrote: ↑Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:37 pmInteresting thesis. Can't help but be slightly amused by the reliance upon parallels -- can you imagine how a mythicist using the same method would be excoriated. But the differences are greater than the similarities!andrewcriddle wrote: ↑Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:33 am
Philostratus is probably substantially influenced by the Gospels. There is an interesting recent argument about this here
Andrew Criddle
I have seen aspects of the argument before, and one thing I have difficulty with is the claim that Philostratus was attempting to show how Apollonius surpasses Jesus. Yet the miracle he singles out as the one most similar to a biblical one is A's raising of the girl from the dead -- and there he explicitly downplays the possibility that A did indeed perform an actual miracle. Perhaps the girl had not really been dead, he opines. Of course one could reply that P is having a dig at the gospel/acts miracles but then we seem to be shifting back and forth over what P's aim actually was.
Not discounting the possibility of dialogue out of hand; I haven't read the thesis in full yet.
Andrew Criddle38 When they came to the home of the synagogue leader, Jesus saw a commotion, with people crying and wailing loudly. 39 He went in and said to them, “Why all this commotion and wailing? The child is not dead but asleep.” 40 But they laughed at him.
Parallels but how does the reader read it? How does the narrator appear to expect the reader to read it?andrewcriddle wrote: ↑Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:20 amThis actually parallels one way of reading the account in Mark 5neilgodfrey wrote: ↑Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:37 pmInteresting thesis. Can't help but be slightly amused by the reliance upon parallels -- can you imagine how a mythicist using the same method would be excoriated. But the differences are greater than the similarities!andrewcriddle wrote: ↑Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:33 am
Philostratus is probably substantially influenced by the Gospels. There is an interesting recent argument about this here
Andrew Criddle
I have seen aspects of the argument before, and one thing I have difficulty with is the claim that Philostratus was attempting to show how Apollonius surpasses Jesus. Yet the miracle he singles out as the one most similar to a biblical one is A's raising of the girl from the dead -- and there he explicitly downplays the possibility that A did indeed perform an actual miracle. Perhaps the girl had not really been dead, he opines. Of course one could reply that P is having a dig at the gospel/acts miracles but then we seem to be shifting back and forth over what P's aim actually was.
Not discounting the possibility of dialogue out of hand; I haven't read the thesis in full yet.Andrew Criddle38 When they came to the home of the synagogue leader, Jesus saw a commotion, with people crying and wailing loudly. 39 He went in and said to them, “Why all this commotion and wailing? The child is not dead but asleep.” 40 But they laughed at him.