Jesus was exposed/crucified only after the death

[Giuseppe]

So here is the proof of the fact that the separationism was not the original Christology of proto-Mark, but the earliest Jewish-Christian reaction against it.

in Paul	in Mark
Jesus's corpse was crucified after the Death of Jesus	The crucifixion was a Roman crucifixion
the corpse of Jesus was cursed	Jesus cried: "My God, why have you cursed me?" in the oldest versions of Mark
Paul was persecuted because he preached a corpse cursed of Jesus	Joseph of Arimathea represents the enemies of Paul who were scandalized by the cursing of the Law behind the cursed corpse of Jesus on the cross
Paul wanted that the corpse of Jesus was cursed, so the Law could be cursed	the enemies of Paul didn't want the end of the Law, so their separationism secured the fact that Jesus was not cursed, but only abandoned by the spiritual Christ.
The resurrection of Jesus proves that the Law ended definitely	for the Separationists, the not-resurrection of the man Jesus proves that the Law was still living

In other terms, the Separationists were the enemies of the pauline “Mark” insofar they didn't want that the man Jesus was cursed by God on the cross(because it would have meant the cursing of the Law), and replaced “cursed” with “abandoned” in the Jesus's cry.

[Giuseppe]

So the Pillars and Paul shared the same belief.

THe only difference between the Pillars and Paul was:

1) that the Pillars believed that the Jesus's corpse was buried before the night of the first day of the sacred drama.

2) ...whereas Paul believed that the Jesus's corpse remained on the cross during the night between the first and the second day and at least buried for the second day of the sacred drama.

That so minimal difference had great differences in terms of Torah-observance. A corpse crucified during the night meant the cursing of the Law, for Paul. A corpse buried before the night meant the classical observance of the Law.

[Charles Wilson]

A corpse buried before the night meant the classical observance of the Law.

Giuseppe --

I repeat for the record that we appear to live in different Universes (Thanks, PK, for providing an Interface between Universes...).
I am intrigued, however, with this high-wire act without a net on "Jesus" being possessed by the Astral "Jesus" and then abandoned.

Numbers 9:

[6] And there were certain men who were unclean through touching the dead body of a man, so that they could not keep the passover on that day; and they came before Moses and Aaron on that day;
[7] and those men said to him, "We are unclean through touching the dead body of a man; why are we kept from offering the LORD's offering at its appointed time among the people of Israel?"
[8] And Moses said to them, "Wait, that I may hear what the LORD will command concerning you."
[9] The LORD said to Moses,
[10] "Say to the people of Israel, If any man of you or of your descendants is unclean through touching a dead body, or is afar off on a journey, he shall still keep the passover to the LORD.
[11] In the second month on the fourteenth day in the evening they shall keep it; they shall eat it with unleavened bread and bitter herbs.
[12] They shall leave none of it until the morning, nor break a bone of it; according to all the statute for the passover they shall keep it.

So Joseph of A comes in contact with a dead body. Why is he left out of the Rest of the Story? For that fact, "Jesus" was in contact with a dead body six days before Passover:

John 12: 1 (RSV):

[1] Six days before the Passover, Jesus came to Bethany, where Laz'arus was, whom Jesus had raised from the dead.

I realize that there is PhD Thesis in Apologetix ^(R) but this is the least of problems here.

Show me the consistent story here, Giuseppe. Is "Jesus" dead or alive when he yells, "For this was I spared/cursed/forsaken/<your translation here>".
If he is a corpse, he ain't yellin' nothin'. If was alive when he was crucified and screaming about the Injustice of it all, the "Astral Jesus" hasn't abandoned him yet.

Finally, can you supply some documentation from that time period, from "Omar the Hint Maker" perhaps, that would support your views?

Thanx,

CW

[Giuseppe]

A corpse buried before the night meant the classical observance of the Law.

Giuseppe --

I repeat for the record that we appear to live in different Universes (Thanks, PK, for providing an Interface between Universes...).

I agree and like a lot the recognition of this our living in different Universes. Thanks also by me, PK.

I am intrigued, however, with this high-wire act without a net on "Jesus" being possessed by the Astral "Jesus" and then abandoned.

Show me the consistent story here, Giuseppe. Is "Jesus" dead or alive when he yells, "For this was I spared/cursed/forsaken/<your translation here>".
If he is a corpse, he ain't yellin' nothin'. If was alive when he was crucified and screaming about the Injustice of it all, the "Astral Jesus" hasn't abandoned him yet.

Jesus was dead for Paul, when he was on the Jewish cross (note that the glossa ''and in a death of cross'' in Philippians 2:6-11 is therefore not even pauline). But for "Mark" Jesus was alive, since he was on a Roman cross. In this latter case, Jesus could cry. But what precisely did he cry?

"my God, why have you abandoned me?"

...or...:

"my God, why have you cursed me?"

Here is the answer:

For the death of Jesus on the cross, we have seen above that Mark was mainly inspired by the chapter LIII of Isaiah and Psalm 22 (99). But the supreme word he sends from Jesus to God should derive the attention "At the ninth hour, says verse 34 of chapter 15 of the Gospel," Jesus cried with a loud voice: "Eloi Eloi lema sabactani" that is, translated (100): "My God my God whay have you abandoned me?".
The exclamation of Jesus is the exact reproduction of the beginning of Psalm 22, but in Aramaic, the language practiced by the Jewish people at the beginning of the Christian era. But in other manuscripts there is an exclamation in Hebrew: "Heli, Heli, lama zaphthani" (101), with the translation: "My God, my God, why hast thou cursed me?"
As Couchoud has pointed out, it is this text that must be primitive, because the Hebrew call: "Heli, Heli" explains much better than the Aramaic call: "Eloi, Eloi", the following verse (15: 35): "When some of those standing near heard this, they said, "Listen, he's calling Elijah." (the prophet of the Bible). It is understandable, Alfaric explained, that "a copyist, knowing Aramaic, has said to himself, according to other passages of Mark, that Jesus spoke rather in that language."
But the second version presents another difference with the first: instead of the Aramaic "sabachthani", "you abandoned me", it contains the word "zaphthani" (also Syriac, and Hebrew term), who would want to say, "you cursed me". This is a second argument to admit that "it is this text that must be primitive".
In fact, Alfaric explains, "it is quite understandable that this text has been modified by a copyist, who, having recognized in the first three words the beginning of Psalm 22, will have believed that the fourth had been altered and will have restored from the Psalm. On the contrary, one would not understand that someone had, by himself, modified a sentence of a Psalm put in the mouth of Christ "(103).
However, if we insisted on the philological value of this second version, it is because of its content: "My God, my God, why did you curse me?" We find in the text of Marc the influence of the Pauline Epistles; We have explained above "the scandal of the cross", struck by the curse of Deuteronomy, which in the middle of the first century contained the doctrine of Paul, not only for the Jews, but for the Judeo-Christians (104).

(my free translation from Marc Stéphane. — La passion de Jésus, fait d'histoire ou objet de croyance, Paris, Dervy-Livres, 1959, 318 p.)

[Giuseppe]

Deuteronomy 21:22-23

22 If someone guilty of a capital offense is put to death and their body is exposed on a pole, 23 you must not leave the body hanging on the pole overnight. Be sure to bury it that same day, because anyone who is hung on a pole is under God’s curse. You must not desecrate the land the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance

So, if the "prince of this world" - Satan - crucified the corpse of Jesus on the tree, then he desecrated the world God had given to Satan. Satan and the his demons were so evil tenants of the world of a higher god. In Mark, the evil tenants became the Jews themselves: they desecrated the land by crucifying Jesus and therefore they were expulsed by God.

[Giuseppe]

Two reasons to consider the following passage as pre-pauline in the his essentia:

“He had one left to send, a son, whom he loved. He sent him last of all, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’
7 “But the tenants said to one another, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.’ 8 So they took him and killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard.

(Mark 12:6-7)


1) the killers know the identity of the victim. So Paul's Messianic Secret (1 Cor 2:6-8) was 100% a pauline thing.

2) the victim is killed but not crucified. His corpse is thrown out of the vineyard: in the lower heavens (being out of this world). So where the corpse was buried is in the lower heavens.

[Giuseppe]

Reviewed Works: Histoire et mythe à propos de Jésus-Christ by Alfred Loisy; Autres mythes à propos de la religion by Alfred Loisy
Review by: Édouard Dujardin

Revue de l'histoire des religions
Vol. 118 (1938), pp. 216-220 (5 pages)

Pour évoquer un tableau plus digne de son talent, la crucifixion entre ciel et terre qu'il a imaginée n'en est pas plus acceptable. Et c'est ce que M. Loisy a prouvé de la facon la pls catégorique. Certes, et quoi qu'en dise l'illustre critique, ce sont bien les démons qui ont crucifié Jésus; mais ce n'est pas entre ciel et terre qu'ils l'ont crucifié, c'est au cours du drame sacré qui représentait et réalisait la passion du dieu

My free translation:

To evoke a picture more worthy of his talent, the crucifixion between heaven and earth he [Couchoud] imagined is no more acceptable. And that's what Mr. Loisy has proved in the most categorical way. Certainly, and whatever the illustrious critic says, they are just the demons who have crucified Jesus; but it was not between heaven and earth where they crucified him, it was during the sacred drama that represented and realized the passion of the god.

(my bold)


So it was only question of a sacred drama, for Dujardin. The killers were actors in this drama just as the “victim” and they represented the demons who killed Jesus. So, from the beginning, the Christ myth required demons (as killers) and the human actors doing what the demons would have done directly.

[Giuseppe]

From the same source, Dujardin continues:

Il semble, par contre, que l'auteur de Jésus le dieu fait homme a vu juste quand il a fait des apparitions que saint Paul relate 1 Cor. 15:1-11, le point de départ de l'instauration chrétienne; l'erreur à laquelle l'a conduit son système est de laisser ces apparitions “en l'air”, alors qu'elles s'expliquent naturellement si elles accompagnent, dans une atmosphère de revival, la célébration de tel rite, de telle cérémonie capables de les susciter. Les raisons pour lesquelles M. Loisy en conteste de toute facon l'historicité et nie l'authenticité du texte de saint Paul relèvent d'une critique interne à laquelle il m'est impossible d'etre sensible.

My free translation:

It seems, on the other hand, that the author of Jésus le dieu fait homme [i.e. Couchoud] was right when he makes the apparitions that St. Paul relates in 1 Cor. 15:1-11, the starting point of the Christian establishment; the error that led his system is to leave these apparitions "in the air", while they are naturally explained if they accompanied, in an atmosphere of revival, the celebration of such ritual, of a such ceremony able to arouse them. The reasons for which M. Loisy contests historicity in any case and denies the authenticity of the text of Saint Paul show an internal criticism to which it is impossible for me to be sensitive.

(my bold)

According to Dujardin, they were just the hallucinations of the Pillars, done during the last sacred drama (a historical event), to be described by Paul in 1 Cor 15:1-11.

[arnoldo]

. . According to Dujardin, they were just the hallucinations of the Pillars, done during the last sacred drama (a historical event), to be described by Paul in 1 Cor 15:1-11.

Is this Dujardin the same as this French novelist?

Édouard Dujardin (10 November 1861 – 31 October 1949) was a French writer, one of the early users of the stream of consciousness literary technique, exemplified by his 1888 novel Les Lauriers sont coupés.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89douard_Dujardin

[Giuseppe]

Yes.