Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

Charles Wilson wrote:maryhelena!

This is the meaning of John 2: 18 -20:

[18] The Jews then said to him, "What sign have you to show us for doing this?"
[19] Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."
[20] The Jews then said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?"

You can find on this site several references I have made to 2 Passovers, the Passover of 4 BCE where at least 3000 were killed and the Passover of 9 CE.
Here is one of the reasons you need to take this idea seriously:
This is a Time Marker. The Priest(s) who "Miraculously" survived the Slaughter of 4 BCE are preparing for a Duplicate Passover in 9. They are in Upper Galilee preparing for their Mishmarot Service at this Passover, probably at the end of their previous year. There are Stories telling of the Coming Cleansing of the Temple and the elimination of the Romans.
Simple subtraction tells you that "It has taken 46 years..." takes you back to the death of Antigonus. "The Jews" know what this "Jesus" (this Priest, actually...) is referring to.

CW

Yes, gJohn' 46 years, dated from the execution of Antigonus in 37 b.c. run to around 9 c.e. - however, I don't find that date, 9 c.e., of any relevance to the gospel story - or to the start of the building of Herod's temple in his 18th year. Anyway, Charles, the OP is endeavoring to focus on how Antigonus met his end - and Greg Doudna has come up with a very interesting theory on some documents from Qumran...

About the 46 years, here is my understanding:

Extract from my webpage http://historical-jesus.info/appa.html
"In Jn2:20a, during the first Passover (out of the three) mentioned in the gospel, we read:
"The Jews replied, "It has taken forty six years to build this temple ...""

So, when was the temple reconstruction started?

In Josephus' Ant., XV, XI, 1, we read:
"And now Herod [the Great], in the eighteenth year of his reign, and after the acts already mentioned, undertook a very great work, that is, to build of himself the temple of God, and make it larger in compass, and to raise it to a more magnificent altitude, ..."
Note: "the fifteenth year" in Josephus' Wars, I, XXI, 1, appears to be an error that Josephus corrected in 'Antiquities'. With that later date, John would have appeared two or three years before Pontius Pilate's rule over Judea, conflicting with Lk3:1-3:
"... when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea [from the fall of 26C.E.] ... John ... went ... preaching a baptism ...""

I went on to calculate the most likely year for these 46 years after Herod started to rebuild the temple.
What I found is 27 CE.
All details are on http://historical-jesus.info/appa.html

Cordially, Bernard

Diogenes the Cynic wrote:The Greek word translated as "cross" is stauros. Stauros means any kind of stake or upright pole (it literally means a "standing thing") and does not have to denote a cross as for crucifixion. It could as easily mean a whipping post, which is what Dio appears to be talking about.

Whatever the method of hanging on a stake or pole - it's all crucifixion: Below is an old post from FRDB.

The book that I referenced earlier, ‘Ancient Jewish and Christian perceptions of crucifixion’ has a lot to say re this issue of crucifixion - along with all the Greek and Latin terminology involved. I can’t type the Greek words - but the material is easily accessed from page 8 of his book. (page 70 re the extended footnote on the quotation from Cassius Dio). I will type a few interesting points from the amazon preview of this book - I will have to put ****in some places re the Greek words.

Ancient Jewish and Christian perceptions of crucifixion: David W. Chapman

Pages 8 - 12

Latin Terminology

The English terminology has roots in the Latin verb crucifigo........to fasten to a crux. A crux was a wooden instrument of execution upon which a person was suspended. Other terms may be used to refer to the victim or to indicate verbally the action of crucifixion. It is common for modern authors to distinguish four shapes of crosses: crux immissa......crux commissa....the Greek cross...and crux decussate or St Andrew’s cross. The cross bar of the crux, a kind of yoke, is sometimes designated a patibulum. Criminals can also be spoken of as being fixed to a pole/stake (palus, sudis) or to a piece of wood (lignum).

However, even the so-called technical terminology could give the misleading impression that execution via the crux had only a limited range of shapes and practices. A well-known quote from Seneca indicates otherwise........(“I see there crosses, not merely of one kind, but fashioned differently by others: a certain one suspends (a person)with his head upside down towards the ground, others impale a stake through the sexual organs, others extend the arms by a yoke (patibulum)".. Understanding the three clauses beginning with capite as explications of “video istic cruces...”, then even impaling of the genitals on a stipes (“tree, branch”) can be considered affixing to a crux. That Seneca distinguished what he “saw” from any possible expectations to a unity of appearances of the cross (“non unius quidem generis”) may show both (1) that under the Romans in this time execution on the cross tended to follow a fairly common routine, and (2) that there could be significant exceptions that are designated by the same terminology. Indeed the affixing of a dead body to a crux could also be described as a crucifixion in Latin.

Thus a variety of words could be used to speak of crucifixion, and even the most technical Latin terms could refer to the suspension of humans in ways only vaguely resembling execution on a crux immissa. This relative flexibility in terminology is all the more obvious in the extant Greek sources.

Greek Terminology

Nevertheless, in Greek it is rare for the semantic range of any single term to be confined to “crucifixion”. For example a******appears originally to have referred to an upright pole. ......Hence it naturally follows that both. **** and **** can refer to the building of stockades as well as to the setting up of poles (especially for the purpose of suspending people on *****). Elsewhere a ****can be used as a place of scouring, with the death following from some other method.

A ****likewise generally refers to “anything pointed” including pales, stakes, thorns, a point of a fishhook, and (in the plural) a palisade.

However, the “fundamental” references to an upright pole in ****and its cognates, and to pointy objects in **** and its cognates, does not rightly imply such that terminology in antiquity, when applied to crucifixion, invariable referred to a single upright beam. This is a common word study fallacy in some populist literature. In fact, such terminology often referred in antiquity to cross-shaped crucifixion devices. For example, Lucian, in a brief dialogue that employs most Greek crucifixion vocabulary, refers to the “crucifixion” of Prometheus, whose arms are pinned while stretched from one rock to another. Such a cross-shaped crucifixion position in the Roman era may actually have been the norm; nevertheless, the point to be sustained at this stage is that this position was not the only one to be designated with these Greek terms.

Perhaps most importantly, there is often ambiguity in crucifixion and suspension accounts as to whether the person is being suspended before or after death. So, Josephus, while most often utilizing **** to indicate a means of execution, can also say that the Philistines “crucified” the dead bodies of Saul and his sons “to the walls of the city of Bethsan”.

Bernard Muller wrote:About the 46 years, here is my understanding:

Extract from my webpage http://historical-jesus.info/appa.html
"In Jn2:20a, during the first Passover (out of the three) mentioned in the gospel, we read:
"The Jews replied, "It has taken forty six years to build this temple ...""

So, when was the temple reconstruction started?

In Josephus' Ant., XV, XI, 1, we read:
"And now Herod [the Great], in the eighteenth year of his reign, and after the acts already mentioned, undertook a very great work, that is, to build of himself the temple of God, and make it larger in compass, and to raise it to a more magnificent altitude, ..."
Note: "the fifteenth year" in Josephus' Wars, I, XXI, 1, appears to be an error that Josephus corrected in 'Antiquities'. With that later date, John would have appeared two or three years before Pontius Pilate's rule over Judea, conflicting with Lk3:1-3:
"... when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea [from the fall of 26C.E.] ... John ... went ... preaching a baptism ...""

I went on to calculate the most likely year for these 46 years after Herod started to rebuild the temple.
What I found is 27 CE.
All details are on http://historical-jesus.info/appa.html

Cordially, Bernard

Thanks, Bernard......but lets not take this 46 years any further - it adds nothing to the argument/theory of Greg Doudna regarding Antigonus being the Wicked Priest of the Qumran documents.

maryhelena wrote:...but lets not take this 46 years any further - it adds nothing to the argument/theory of Greg Doudna regarding Antigonus being the Wicked Priest of the Qumran documents.

Actually, it does.
The 9 CE Passover is EXTREMELY important to understanding what happened to the Story that became the NT.
This is seen in Herod building the Temple:

Luke 13: 11 - 13 (RSV):

[11] And there was a woman who had had a spirit of infirmity for eighteen years; she was bent over and could not fully straighten herself.
[12] And when Jesus saw her, he called her and said to her, "Woman, you are freed from your infirmity."
[13] And he laid his hands upon her, and immediately she was made straight, and she praised God.

This is after the deaths of the Hasmonean Rulers, most of them dying at the hands of Herod. The woman has been unable to rise. She has been bent over for 18 years.
The collation of all of the material takes a bit but the end of the Story is this:

Antiquities..., 15, 11, 6:

"...for at the same time with this celebration for the work about the temple fell also the day of the king's inauguration, which he kept of an old custom as a festival, and it now coincided with the other, which coincidence of them both made the festival most illustrious.

You cannot worship God without worshiping Herod. Herod finishes the Cloisters near 10 BCE which puts the "+ 18 years" again at the preparation for, or at, the Passover of 9 CE. This Priest is telling the Nation that they do not have to bow down anymore. The Shame of the deaths of the Hasmoneans and the Rulers and the High Priests is coming to an end and that end is at the Passover of 9 CE, when IMMER completes the Perfect Sacrifices.

Revelation 7: 10 (RSV):


[10] and crying out with a loud voice, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb!"

Q E D .

The Qumran Documents focus on the Calendars and the Marking of Time. The Mishmarot Service provides a check on these calendars (Eisenman and Wise, Dead Sea Scrolls Uncovered, Chapter 4, p.106+).
Jannaeus was for years considered the "Wicked Priest" but only recently has that Political Smear been eliminated. Antigonus certainly had a lot against him (See: "Antigone").
ALL of this is important to understanding what happened.

CW

Charles Wilson wrote:

maryhelena wrote:...but lets not take this 46 years any further - it adds nothing to the argument/theory of Greg Doudna regarding Antigonus being the Wicked Priest of the Qumran documents.

Actually, it does.
The 9 CE Passover is EXTREMELY important to understanding what happened to the Story that became the NT.

The fact that 9 c.e. is 46 years since the execution of Antigonus in 37 b.c. is just that, a fact of history. There are no elements of the gospel JC story that are placed in that year. Making an interpretation of a gospel story to, somehow, fit 9 c.e. is just that - an interpretation. And, since interpretations of that gospel story are two a penny - it does not have any value for searching for early christian origins. And that is my primary interest - identifying the historical core to that story. That requires working first from history - not working from interpretations of the gospel story. It's not a case of making the gospel story, making interpreting of that story, to fit history. It is a case of finding historical reflections within that story......starting with history not gospel interpretations.

So, please, Charles, don't come back to me with interpretations of gospel stories....

The fact that 9 c.e. is 46 years since the execution of Antigonus in 37 b.c.

Actually, between the Passover of 37 BC and the one of 9 CE, there are only 45 years, not 46 (there is no year 0).
Cordially, Bernard

Bernard Muller wrote:

The fact that 9 c.e. is 46 years since the execution of Antigonus in 37 b.c.

Actually, between the Passover of 37 BC and the one of 9 CE, there are only 45 years, not 46 (there is no year 0).
Cordially, Bernard

Yep, counting years back and forth is not a precise exercise - no months or days are in evidence - or when rulers counted their rule from etc....always a tricky exercise...approximate has to do the job.....

It is generally accepted that the entire year denotes a year in the rule of any king or Emperor.

For instance, the second year in the reign of the Vespasian would be the entire year of A.D.70.

His first year would have been A.D. 69, though he was formally proclaimed emperor in December.

maryhelena wrote:

Charles Wilson wrote:

maryhelena wrote:...but lets not take this 46 years any further - it adds nothing to the argument/theory of Greg Doudna regarding Antigonus being the Wicked Priest of the Qumran documents.

Actually, it does.
The 9 CE Passover is EXTREMELY important to understanding what happened to the Story that became the NT.

The fact that 9 c.e. is 46 years since the execution of Antigonus in 37 b.c. is just that, a fact of history. There are no elements of the gospel JC story that are placed in that year. Making an interpretation of a gospel story to, somehow, fit 9 c.e. is just that - an interpretation. And, since interpretations of that gospel story are two a penny - it does not have any value for searching for early christian origins. And that is my primary interest - identifying the historical core to that story. That requires working first from history - not working from interpretations of the gospel story. It's not a case of making the gospel story, making interpreting of that story, to fit history. It is a case of finding historical reflections within that story......starting with history not gospel interpretations.

So, please, Charles, don't come back to me with interpretations of gospel stories....

So, let's get started:

"For example, the observation of insects on flowers dimly suggests some congruity between the natures of insects and of flowers, and thus leads to a wealth of observation from which whole branches of science have developed. But a consistent positivist should be content with the observed facts, namely insects visiting flowers. It is a fact of charming simplicity. There is nothing further to be said upon the matter, according to the doctrine of a positivist."

- - A N Whitehead, "Nature Alive"

This observation by Whitehead can also be used as a weapon by some very sophisticated people. Any data produced carries no relation to any other data produced, so it can be dismissed. At the other end of this are the Schizoids who relate anything and everything. Meaningful dialogue occurs between these two poles. So I have to prove that my data rises to the level of "Necessarily Related and Important to the Discussion".

1. Hannah the Prophetess:

Luke 2: 36 - 38 (RSV):

[36] And there was a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phan'u-el, of the tribe of Asher; she was of a great age, having lived with her husband seven years from her virginity,
[37] and as a widow till she was eighty-four. She did not depart from the temple, worshiping with fasting and prayer night and day.
[38] And coming up at that very hour she gave thanks to God, and spoke of him to all who were looking for the redemption of Jerusalem.

Hannah is a widow. Simple subtraction: 8 + ( -84) = ( -76) => 76 BCE.
What happens in around 76 BCE? The widow Salome becomes Queen at the death of Jannaeus.
History first, interpretation later.

2. The Death of Antigonus. mentioned earlier. The "Simple Subtraction" from 8/9 CE is complicated a bit by the possibility that this subtraction may come from 4 BCE and reference Aristobulus 2 and his son, who is beheaded by Scipio. Turns out that it's still subtracted from 8/9 CE. Aristobulus and Alexander are mentioned in Revelation and the small scroll that tastes sweet and is bitter on the stomach - "Do you like honey?"

3. The Death of Hyrcanus at the hands of Herod:

John 5: (RSV):

[2] Now there is in Jerusalem by the Sheep Gate a pool, in Hebrew called Beth-za'tha, which has five porticoes.
[3] In these lay a multitude of invalids, blind, lame, paralyzed.
[5] One man was there, who had been ill for thirty-eight years.
[6] When Jesus saw him and knew that he had been lying there a long time, he said to him, "Do you want to be healed?"
[7] The sick man answered him, "Sir, I have no man to put me into the pool when the water is troubled, and while I am going another steps down before me."

Simple subtraction: 8 + ( -38) = ( - 30) = 30 BCE.
What happened? Herod calls Hyrcanus back from the Parthians and kills him. Oh, and Herod is on the wrong side in the Battle of Actium, backing Antony and Cleopatra against Octavian. A trivial detail here.
Let's call it a Resume Enhancer.

Antiquities..., 15, 6, 2:

"...Now as soon as Herod had received this letter, he immediately sent for Hyrcanus, and questioned him about the league he had made with Malchus; and when he denied it, he showed his letter to the Sanhedrim, and put the man to death immediately..."

Herod kills the sons of Mariamne and then Mariamne and there are no more Hasmoneans left to rule...are there?

4. The Woman Bent Over for 18 Years: Mentioned earlier. This one takes a bit of decipherment. Herod finishes the Cloisters in 10 BCE and the + 18 years is figured from that. "If all the Hasmonean Rulers are dead, who is Freeing the Woman from her affliction...?"

Which leads us to:

5 and 6:

Mark 5: 25 and 42 (RSV):

[25] And there was a woman who had had a flow of blood for twelve years,
...
[42] And immediately the girl got up and walked (she was twelve years of age), and they were immediately overcome with amazement.

This puts us right back to the Temple Slaughter of 4 BCE. These are the Key Time Markers. Herod killed the Hasmonean Rulers but he could not kill the Temple Service Groups, assembled by King David.

Leviticus 15: 25 (RSV):

[25] "If a woman has a discharge of blood for many days, not at the time of her impurity, or if she has a discharge beyond the time of her impurity, all the days of the discharge she shall continue in uncleanness; as in the days of her impurity, she shall be unclean.

The Story, on Interpretation then, leads us to a Story of Cleansing the Temple and eliminating Herod and the Romans...

So, a word about interpretation. "...interpretations of that gospel story are two a penny - it does not have any value for searching for early christian origins." 'N is that History or interpretation? I am not the Positivist nor the Schizoid. One swallow does not a spring make but if the sky is covered with birds then maybe it's spring or maybe you're in an Alfred Hitchcock movie.

I'll say it again: About 9 years of research and I find myself looking a small settlement named "Jabnit" in "Upper Galilee". It was inhabited by members of the Mishmarot Service Group Immer. They believe that the Hasmoneans descended from THEM. They go to Jerusalem every 24 weeks for Mishmarot Service at the Temple. Not bad for "2 for a penny" interpretations, right?

Who was on Service in 4 BCE and 9 CE? Is this important for understanding the Origins of the New Testament?

Revelation 5: 5 - 6, 10 (RSV):

[5] Then one of the elders said to me, "Weep not; lo, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals."
[6] And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders, I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth;
...
[10] and hast made them a kingdom and priests to our God,
and they shall reign on earth."

Q E D .

CW