Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

MH,

I am finding the political history of the period between Alexandra Salome (widow of Alexander Janneus) to be very hard to fit together. The WIKI articles are so fragmented and use such stilted language and rely so heavily on secondary sources that they are virtually useless.

The intensity of the rivalry between Hyrcanus II and Aristobolus II is very obvious. Aristobolus II's sons Alexander and Antigonus II Matthias were both very warlike, like their father. Father and sons were all exceptionally well regarded by many Judeans and Galilleans, including some Pharisees. Hyrcanus II does not seem to have garnered the same degree of love from the Judean peoples, although he supported the Pharisees.

I'm in the process of piecing together the history, but there are so many little details that might be relevant to understanding the allusions in the pesharim that all it does is make me cross eyed! I'll try comparing the accounts of Hyrcanus II, Aristobolus II, and Antigonus II Matthias in Schürer (the old English translation as it is digitized) and then try to piece it together from primary sources like Josephus, etc.

DCH Correction 4/14 see what I mean?

DCHindley wrote:MH,

I am finding the political history of the period between Alexandra Salome (widow of Alexander Janneus) to be very hard to fit together. The WIKI articles are so fragmented and use such stilted language and rely so heavily on secondary sources that they are virtually useless.

The intensity of the rivalry between Hyrcanus II and Aristobolus II is very obvious. Aristobolus II's sons Alexander and Aristobolus II Matthias were both very warlike, like their father. Father and sons were all exceptionally well regarded by many Judeans and Galilleans, including some Pharisees. Hyrcanus II does not seem to have garnered the same degree of love from the Judean peoples, although he supported the Pharisees.

I'm in the process of piecing together the history, but there are so many little details that might be relevant to understanding the allusions in the pesharim that all it does is make me cross eyed!

DCH

DCH-

I can help you a lot but based on the criticism I take here, you might not want it.
Bottom line: It's "Salome", not "Salome Alexandra". Josephus is continuing a Racial Smear against the Hasmoneans that begins with Hyrcanus 1 and runs through Jannaeus.
If Jannaeus married Salome Alexandra in a Leverite marriage he would have been 13:
Jewish Encyclopedia, "Alexandra":

"That Alexandra, the widow of Aristobulus I., was identical with her who married his brother Alexander Jannæus, is nowhere explicitly stated by Josephus, who no doubt took it for granted that the latter performed the levirate marriage prescribed by the law for the widow of a childless brother deceased. Josephus' statement ("Ant." xv. 6, § 3), that Hyrcanus, Jannæus' eldest son, was eighty years old when he was put to death by Herod, in 31 B.C., must be erroneous, for that would set the year of his birth as 111 B.C., and Jannæus himself was born in 125, so that he could have been but fourteen when Hyrcanus was born to him. It is difficult to understand how a thirteen-year-old boy married a widow of thirty..."

The slur on Salome begins when Josephus tells us that Salome was called Alexandra by the Greeks. Why is that necessary? Who cares what the Greeks called her?
Notice the continuation of the smear. Rather than examine Josephus to see what he is actually saying, the Skollers and the wine and brie crowd would rather change some date so that would support 2000 years of racial attacks.
Jannaeus did not marry "Salome Alexandra". He married Salome.

There's a lot more but I'm tired. Maybe more tomorrow. Maybe not.

CW

Not to seem obvious, why don't you read the passages in Josephus instead of relying on Wiki?

Charles Wilson wrote:The slur on Salome begins when Josephus tells us that Salome was called Alexandra by the Greeks. Why is that necessary? Who cares what the Greeks called her?

There is no slur there. It was the norm that these rulers had a Greek and Hebrew name. "Alexandra Shelamzion" is just one example. Think of Alexander Jannaeus, Aristobulus Mat(ta)thias, and John Hyrcanus (I). A check of the coins shows that this was truly the case. Greek culture was the most significant in the area until the Romans arrived. There were Greek-speaking colonies across the Levant, as the Decapolis indicates, as well as Sepphoris, Straton's Tower, Beth-Shean etc.

steve43 wrote:Not to seem obvious, why don't you read the passages in Josephus instead of relying on Wiki?

Nobody, including Schurer or even Joe Cephus, gives a continuous chronological narrative, so it has to be pieced together from isolated passages in War and Ant. I need a framework to work from.

DCH

DCHindley wrote:MH,

I am finding the political history of the period between Alexandra Salome (widow of Alexander Janneus) to be very hard to fit together. The WIKI articles are so fragmented and use such stilted language and rely so heavily on secondary sources that they are virtually useless.

The intensity of the rivalry between Hyrcanus II and Aristobolus II is very obvious. Aristobolus II's sons Alexander and Antigonus II Matthias were both very warlike, like their father. Father and sons were all exceptionally well regarded by many Judeans and Galilleans, including some Pharisees. Hyrcanus II does not seem to have garnered the same degree of love from the Judean peoples, although he supported the Pharisees.

I'm in the process of piecing together the history, but there are so many little details that might be relevant to understanding the allusions in the pesharim that all it does is make me cross eyed! I'll try comparing the accounts of Hyrcanus II, Aristobolus II, and Antigonus II Matthias in Schürer (the old English translation as it is digitized) and then try to piece it together from primary sources like Josephus, etc.

DCH Correction 4/14 see what I mean?

Waiting for one of your great charts here, David......

Yep, all roads lead to that Josephan writer............................................................

spin wrote:

Charles Wilson wrote:The slur on Salome begins when Josephus tells us that Salome was called Alexandra by the Greeks. Why is that necessary? Who cares what the Greeks called her?

There is no slur there...

Josephus, Antiquities..., 13, 10, 5:

"However, this prosperous state of affairs moved the Jews to envy Hyrcanus; but they that were the worst disposed to him were the Pharisees, who were one of the sects of the Jews, as we have informed you already. These have so great a power over the multitude, that when they say any thing against the king, or against the high priest, they are presently believed. Now Hyrcanus was a disciple of theirs, and greatly beloved by them. And when he once invited them to a feast...But still there was one of his guests there, whose name was Eleazar, a man of an ill temper, and delighting in seditious practices. This man said," Since thou desirest to know the truth, if thou wilt be righteous in earnest, lay down the high priesthood, and content thyself with the civil government of the people," And when he desired to know for what cause he ought to lay down the high priesthood, the other replied, "We have heard it from old men, that thy mother had been a captive under the reign of Antiochus Epiphanes. "This story was false", and Hyrcanus was provoked against him; and all the Pharisees had a very great indignation against him..."

Racial Slur.

Antiquities..., 13, 13, 5:

"As to Alexander, his own people were seditious against him; for at a festival which was then celebrated, when he stood upon the altar, and was going to sacrifice, the nation rose upon him, and pelted him with citrons [which they then had in their hands, because] the law of the Jews required that at the feast of tabernacles every one should have branches of the palm tree and citron tree; which thing we have elsewhere related. They also reviled him, as derived from a captive, and so unworthy of his dignity and of sacrificing..."

Racial Slur.

Antiquities..., 13, 12, 1:

"WHEN Aristobulus was dead, his wife Salome, who, by the Greeks, was called Alexandra..."

Racial Slur. Josephus declared, to his credit, that the Racial Slur directed against Hyrcanus 1 was false. It is conceivable that he was "merely reporting" the criticisms of Jannaeus (Or, rather more probably, that he was rewriting from the reports of the Political Control Officer Nicholas of Damascus). Here, however, Josephus writes for a reason.

Which Greeks? Where were they? Why was it important to note that certain Greeks thought that this "Salome" should be called "Salome Alexandra"? Were these Greeks under the command of Demetrius Eucerus? Mebbe they were from the Greek community in Tarpon Springs, Florida. Mebbe they were related to Telly Savalas. Which Greeks and why?

This is why it is important to realize that "Josephus nowhere states that Jannaeus performed a Leverite Marriage". As William F Buckley used to say, "Who says "A" must say "B" ." IF Josephus asserts that Jannaeus married a "Salome Alexandra", then Jannaeus would have been 13 at the time of marriage. Now, it's possible, I guess. Maybe we need to get some PhDs, experts in Statistics, to show that males at that time at that place could have, might have been able to...uhhh..."perform" in such a Levirite Marriage but there are "Epistemological Difficulties" with the Statistics as might be applied to the specifics of Jannaeus and Salome.

"Racial Purity" was important to the Hasmoneans and to the Mishmarot Service Groups. Just after the death of Herod, at the Passover of 4 BCE, those who are preparing for the Passover (Who was on duty for that Passover...?) demand that Archelaus appoint a High Priest of "...greater Piety and Purity...". What could that POSSIBLY mean? At Herod's "Last Speech" before he dies, Herod asks if the Hasmoneans in 125 years had accomplished anywhere near what he had accomplished. The Political Control Officer Nicholas of Damascus constructed a fictitious genealogy for Herod, in honor of Herod's father Antipater, to show that their family had come through the Babylonian Exile and that therefore, Herod was of sufficient Racial Purity to be able to both Rule and be High Priest.

This exercise in Racial Purity was for a purpose, a purpose you should be able to see.

Jannaeus was married to Salome. Not "Salome Alexandra". Salome. This eliminates having to re-jiggle dates and times to accommodate a Racial Slur, made over generations, for the purpose of denying the Hasmoneans Rulership and the High Priesthood.

CW

DCHindley wrote:

steve43 wrote:Not to seem obvious, why don't you read the passages in Josephus instead of relying on Wiki?

Nobody, including Schurer or even Joe Cephus, gives a continuous chronological narrative, so it has to be pieced together from isolated passages in War and Ant. I need a framework to work from.

DCH

Too much work, so little time.

I get it now.

Charles Wilson wrote:

spin wrote:

Charles Wilson wrote:The slur on Salome begins when Josephus tells us that Salome was called Alexandra by the Greeks. Why is that necessary? Who cares what the Greeks called her?

There is no slur there...

Josephus, Antiquities..., 13, 10, 5:

"However, this prosperous state of affairs moved the Jews to envy Hyrcanus; but they that were the worst disposed to him were the Pharisees, who were one of the sects of the Jews, as we have informed you already. These have so great a power over the multitude, that when they say any thing against the king, or against the high priest, they are presently believed. Now Hyrcanus was a disciple of theirs, and greatly beloved by them. And when he once invited them to a feast...But still there was one of his guests there, whose name was Eleazar, a man of an ill temper, and delighting in seditious practices. This man said," Since thou desirest to know the truth, if thou wilt be righteous in earnest, lay down the high priesthood, and content thyself with the civil government of the people," And when he desired to know for what cause he ought to lay down the high priesthood, the other replied, "We have heard it from old men, that thy mother had been a captive under the reign of Antiochus Epiphanes. "This story was false", and Hyrcanus was provoked against him; and all the Pharisees had a very great indignation against him..."

Racial Slur.

Antiquities..., 13, 13, 5:

"As to Alexander, his own people were seditious against him; for at a festival which was then celebrated, when he stood upon the altar, and was going to sacrifice, the nation rose upon him, and pelted him with citrons [which they then had in their hands, because] the law of the Jews required that at the feast of tabernacles every one should have branches of the palm tree and citron tree; which thing we have elsewhere related. They also reviled him, as derived from a captive, and so unworthy of his dignity and of sacrificing..."

Racial Slur.

Antiquities..., 13, 12, 1:

"WHEN Aristobulus was dead, his wife Salome, who, by the Greeks, was called Alexandra..."

Racial Slur. Josephus declared, to his credit, that the Racial Slur directed against Hyrcanus 1 was false. It is conceivable that he was "merely reporting" the criticisms of Jannaeus (Or, rather more probably, that he was rewriting from the reports of the Political Control Officer Nicholas of Damascus). Here, however, Josephus writes for a reason.

Which Greeks? Where were they? Why was it important to note that certain Greeks thought that this "Salome" should be called "Salome Alexandra"? Were these Greeks under the command of Demetrius Eucerus? Mebbe they were from the Greek community in Tarpon Springs, Florida. Mebbe they were related to Telly Savalas. Which Greeks and why?

This is why it is important to realize that "Josephus nowhere states that Jannaeus performed a Leverite Marriage". As William F Buckley used to say, "Who says "A" must say "B" ." IF Josephus asserts that Jannaeus married a "Salome Alexandra", then Jannaeus would have been 13 at the time of marriage. Now, it's possible, I guess. Maybe we need to get some PhDs, experts in Statistics, to show that males at that time at that place could have, might have been able to...uhhh..."perform" in such a Levirite Marriage but there are "Epistemological Difficulties" with the Statistics as might be applied to the specifics of Jannaeus and Salome.

"Racial Purity" was important to the Hasmoneans and to the Mishmarot Service Groups. Just after the death of Herod, at the Passover of 4 BCE, those who are preparing for the Passover (Who was on duty for that Passover...?) demand that Archelaus appoint a High Priest of "...greater Piety and Purity...". What could that POSSIBLY mean? At Herod's "Last Speech" before he dies, Herod asks if the Hasmoneans in 125 years had accomplished anywhere near what he had accomplished. The Political Control Officer Nicholas of Damascus constructed a fictitious genealogy for Herod, in honor of Herod's father Antipater, to show that their family had come through the Babylonian Exile and that therefore, Herod was of sufficient Racial Purity to be able to both Rule and be High Priest.

This exercise in Racial Purity was for a purpose, a purpose you should be able to see.

Jannaeus was married to Salome. Not "Salome Alexandra". Salome. This eliminates having to re-jiggle dates and times to accommodate a Racial Slur, made over generations, for the purpose of denying the Hasmoneans Rulership and the High Priesthood.

CW

The little content in your response to me was a repetition of what you'd already said. The expression "called ... by the Greeks" is simply a means of providing a Greek name, as in AJ 13.188 where Bethshan we are told was "called Scythopolis by the Greeks". Perhaps, you'd like to call that a racial slur as well. Whatever else you're talking about, there is no slur in saying that Salome (Greek form of a hypocoristic of Shelamzion) was called Alexandra by the Greeks. When Jannaeus (=Jannai, hypocoristic of Jonathan) is mentioned in the same section of AJ, Josephus adds that he was also (called) Alexander, then proceeds to use the Greek name, though there is a scroll from the Dead Sea (4Q448) that talks of king Jonathan. Just as he regularly refers to Jannai as Alexander, when he deals with his wife she is referred to as Alexandra. There is no traction for your theory in putting a racial slur into the fact that Salome was called Alexandra by the Greeks. Any case for a racial slur is not derived from this fact. Enjoy.

(For those interested, Herod has a daughter recorded in Josephus's Greek (AJ 16.194) as Salampsio. This name is a rendering of Shelamzion.)

Spin stated:
"The little content in your response to me was a repetition of what you'd already said..."

It's a shame you missed the point.

You wrote about 4Q448. Here it is:

A sacred [po]em
for King Jonathan
and all the Congregation of Your People
Israel,
who are (spread) in every
direction under Heaven
may they all be well,
Perfect before You,
and a Commonwealth in Your Name
...
In Your love do I exalt...
in the day and in the evening, from wine (also possible 'Greece')...
to draw near so as to be...
Visit them for a blessing, to...
upon Your Name which is proclaimed...
a Kingdom for your Commonwealth...
the Joiners in the war/joining the war of...
Your Name for a memorial...

Eisenman and Wise, Dead Sea Scrolls Uncovered, p. 276:

"Alexander Jannaeus or other wilderness-fighting characters in the Maccabean tradition cannot have been 'the Wicked Priest' [[Note: What was this thread originally about?]] . This is a contradiction in terms, and shows a complete failure to grasp the import of the materials before us. Only an individual with Phariseeizing tendencies, like his more accommodating son Hyrcanus II , discussed in some detail above, could have been referred to in such manner. The few lines of this splendid little poem prove this proposition as nothing else can..."

You are fundamentally missing the importance of this. This is not a catalog of possible Greek Terms, as one might talk of buildings or cities - "Birmingham, Alabama is known as the Magic City..."
"S'Cuse me! King Jannaeus! You've just killed 6000 in the Temple. What do have to say for yourself?"
"Well, I was OK with the crowd saying I was derived from a Greek Captive. Hell, they were just practicing their Greek Homework. What got to me was being pelted by citrons. No man should have to put up with that..."

What was Hyrcanus' reaction? "Hyrcanus was very angry, and thought that this man reproached him by their approbation...that he made him leave the party of the Pharisees, and abolish the decrees they had imposed on the people, and to punish those that observed them. From this source arose that hatred which he and his sons met with from the multitude..."

If you don't believe me, then maybe you can believe Eisenman and Wise:

"Alexander Jannaeus...cannot have been 'the Wicked Priest'...Only an individual with Pariseeizing tendencies...could have been referred to in such manner."

Eisenman and Wise are correct.

Jannaeus goes against Demetrius Eucerus, recruited by the Powerful in Jerusalem, and is defeated, in one of the most ABSURD sections in the entirety of Josephus' writings. He fights in the mountains and takes 6 years. "How many died?" On Jannaeus' death bed, he states,"...it was by their [[the Pharisees]] means that he had incurred the displeasure of the nation." After Salome takes over as Queen, the Pharisees begin slitting the throats of those who survived the Tribulation with Jannaeus.

If you think that this is all about a pocket sized translation book of Greek idioms, then, manifestly you are not reading the words correctly.
[[Edit:]] This rises to the level of Atrocity. The Pharisees were *despised* and there are not enough underlinings or bold typefaces to do the word "despised" justice.
"Racial Slurs"? That's fairly mild for what is being described here.

No Doubt. Whatsoever.

CW