Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

I was looking through my downloaded books and web pages that touch on the geography of the Jordan River and the archaeology pertaining to the baptismal installations that lined it, and could find nothing about the Jordan ceasing to flow from Roman to modern times, either naturally or by clever building of baptismal facilities.

Nobody knows for sure where JtB actually did his baptizing, although it is generally thought to be the same place that tradition attributes the crossing by Joshua & Elijah/Elisha, "Bethany/Bethabara-beyond-the-Jordan" (Al-Maghtas?). Aenon near Mt Tabor is also mentioned.

What I did learn is that the river has its ebb & flow, sometimes during the hotter months the river has a drastically reduced flow, meaning it can be easily forded in more places than when the river is overflowing in rainy seasons. The river is periodically flooded so much that the banks of the channel shift, sometimes by as much as mile or so over time. The water follows the paths of least resistance and may redirect to a different valley system, with sand and rock debris being deposited around the old channel as the flow is not strong enough to force the debris along. I recall from Josephus that along some areas of the river between Gadara in Perea and Jericho, refugees and fleeing resistance fighters were forced to try to swim across the overflowing banks of the Jordan, with great loss of life.*

The river's route was in some places against mountain ranges (like across the river from Gadara or Amathus in the Decapolis), where a major rock slide could dam up the river temporarily until it naturally diverts itself along a new path.

There were apparently many springs of water in the area that can be tapped to ensure that a flow of water exists in baptismal pools that were built, and these were probably drained into the Jordan. One excavated pool (used in Byzantine time IIRC) could hold as many as 300 people. Whether such facilities existed in 1st century I cannot say, but much of the archaeological remains what we see now date from the later Roman thru even early Muslim periods of occupation, who encouraged their use for a period on account of JtB and Jesus being considered prophets.

By clever construction, I suppose river water could be diverted to form a symbolic "Jordan" near a baptismal pool, with water gates along the artificial channel that can shut off the flow of the symbolic river for a period during which the pilgrims could "cross the Jordan" as Joshua, Elijah and Elisha did before being baptized in the fashion allegedly employed by John the Baptist.

When Joshua crossed, they forded the river using large rocks/boulders, twelve of which they then had moved to form a monument, but as far as I know, no such monument has survived (major river floods can obliterate even the largest boulders). Here in the USA we have the Colorado and the Niagara rivers which have experienced rock slides and redirection of the river beds many times in history, even modern times.

DCH

*

Josephus, War 4: 433 wrote:But Placidus, relying much upon his horsemen and his former good success, followed them [the Judean fugitives who were fleeing from Gadara in Perea trying to get to Jericho across the Jordan R.], and slew all that he overtook, as far as the Jordan; and when he had driven the whole multitude to the river side, where they were stopped by the current, (for it had been augmented lately by rains, and was not fordable,) he put his soldiers in array opposite them;
434 so the necessity the others were in, provoked them to hazard a battle, because there was no place where they could flee. They then extended themselves a very long way along the banks of the river, and sustained the missiles that were thrown at them, as well as the attacks of the horsemen, who beat many of them, and pushed them into the current.
435 At this battle, hand to hand, fifteen thousand of them were slain, while the number of those who were unwillingly forced to leap into the Jordan was prodigious.
436 There were, besides, two thousand and two hundred taken prisoners. A mighty prey was taken also, consisting of asses, and sheep, and camels, and oxen.
437 Now this destruction that fell upon the Jews, as it was not inferior to any of the rest in itself, so did it still appear greater than it really was; and this, because not only the whole country through which they fled was filled with slaughter, and Jordan could not be crossed over, by reason of the dead bodies that were in it, but because the Dead Sea was also full of dead bodies, that were carried down into it by the river.

But clearly the source is literary - Psalm 114:3 The sea looked and fled, the Jordan turned backwards.

The backwards has been taken in the sense of upwards

DCHindley wrote: ↑Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:08 am I was looking through my downloaded books and web pages that touch on the geography of the Jordan River and the archaeology pertaining to the baptismal installations that lined it, and could find nothing about the Jordan ceasing to flow from Roman to modern times, either naturally or by clever building of baptismal facilities.

Nobody knows for sure where JtB actually did his baptizing, although it is generally thought to be the same place that tradition attributes the crossing by Joshua & Elijah/Elisha, "Bethany/Bethabara-beyond-the-Jordan" (Al-Maghtas?). Aenon near Mt Tabor is also mentioned.

DCH

*

Josephus, War 4: 433 wrote:But Placidus, relying much upon his horsemen and his former good success, followed them [the Judean fugitives who were fleeing from Gadara in Perea trying to get to Jericho across the Jordan R.], and slew all that he overtook, as far as the Jordan; and when he had driven the whole multitude to the river side, where they were stopped by the current, (for it had been augmented lately by rains, and was not fordable,) he put his soldiers in array opposite them;
434 so the necessity the others were in, provoked them to hazard a battle, because there was no place where they could flee. They then extended themselves a very long way along the banks of the river, and sustained the missiles that were thrown at them, as well as the attacks of the horsemen, who beat many of them, and pushed them into the current.
435 At this battle, hand to hand, fifteen thousand of them were slain, while the number of those who were unwillingly forced to leap into the Jordan was prodigious.
436 There were, besides, two thousand and two hundred taken prisoners. A mighty prey was taken also, consisting of asses, and sheep, and camels, and oxen.
437 Now this destruction that fell upon the Jews, as it was not inferior to any of the rest in itself, so did it still appear greater than it really was; and this, because not only the whole country through which they fled was filled with slaughter, and Jordan could not be crossed over, by reason of the dead bodies that were in it, but because the Dead Sea was also full of dead bodies, that were carried down into it by the river.

This might be a marker for Symbolism around the word "Baptism" and not a geographical marker.

1 Corinthians 1: 14 - 16 (RSV):

[14] I am thankful that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Ga'ius;
[15] lest any one should say that you were baptized in my name.
[16] (I did baptize also the household of Steph'anas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any one else.)

I believe that this is a rewrite of a passage from Tacitus, Histories, Book 4:

"...Mucianus entered the capital, and at once drew all power into his own hands. The influence of Primus Antonius and Varus Arrius was destroyed... He alone was canvassed and courted, and he, surrounding himself with armed men, and bargaining for palaces and gardens, ceased not, what with his magnificence, his proud bearing, and his guards, to grasp at the power, while he waived the titles of Empire. The murder of Calpurnius Galerianus caused the utmost consternation. He was a son of Caius Piso, and had done nothing, but a noble name and his own youthful beauty made him the theme of common talk... By order of Mucianus he was surrounded with a guard of soldiers. Lest his execution in the capital should excite too much notice, they conducted him to the fortieth milestone from Rome on the Appian Road, and there put him to death by opening his veins. Julius Priscus, who had been prefect of the Praetorian Guard under Vitellius, killed himself rather out of shame than by compulsion..."

The entire analysis gets complicated, involving Stephen Martyr, the Piso family ("...the household of Stephanas...") and others. The point, however, as I believe that DCH illustrates, is that perhaps "Baptism" is a Symbolic word used, esp. in the NT as a Code-Word for something like "Trial-by-Fire". Mucianus is not "Baptizing" Calpurnius Galerianus. He is murdering a handsome member of the family (Acts: "He had the face of an angel...") as a warning to the Piso family and other Court Rats - "We're not just dickin' around here". The Flavians mean BIDNESS. "Get in line NOW or else."

CW

Edit Note: The Net is not cooperating today and I am very tired. I believe that John is a member of the Mishmarot Group Bilgah and that Bilgah has been given the Settlement Maghar (Ma'ariya) at the Jordan (Leibner, Settlements in Galilee..., p. 148) - at least, according to the maps I can barely focus on right now. A number of military excursions have taken place there and that may give a further meaning to "Baptizing in the Jordan" and "the retreat of the river...".

No that is not the context of the 'Jordan turned upwards' tradition. It is Psalm 113 (unless someone can find it in the Targumim for the Pentateuch). This cements it - https://books.google.com/books?id=Sew9L ... im&f=false

There is also a play on words in Hebrew. The river's name in Hebrew is יַרְדֵן (Yarden), and it is derived from יָרַד (yarad) meaning "descend" or "flow down." To say that the waters were returned necessarily means they went up.

Thnx for your good work, Stephan.

The idea might have as its source Samaritan Joshua (older and more original than the MT) https://books.google.com/books?id=ZCtJA ... an&f=false

And when the priests with the ark approached the water of the Urdun, the Liwanites shouted aloud, and the congregation of the children of Israil joined in with them, saying with one voice; "There is no power or strength in the presence of Thy power, O Lord of worlds!" And the water stood still, and rose up in accumulation, by the power of its Creator; He who is almighty over whatever He wills, the Worker of miracles and wonders. And continued to be heaped up, wave upon wave, until it became like unto huge mountains, while the priests stood praising God, and shouting halleluiahs and saying: "Praise be unto Him, in obedience to whom every thing exists."

MT:

So when the people broke camp to cross the Jordan, the priests carrying the ark of the covenant went ahead of them. 15 Now the Jordan is at flood stage all during harvest. Yet as soon as the priests who carried the ark reached the Jordan and their feet touched the water’s edge, 16 the water from upstream stopped flowing. It piled up in a heap a great distance away, at a town called Adam in the vicinity of Zarethan, while the water flowing down to the Sea of the Arabah (that is, the Dead Sea) was completely cut off.

One of many arguments for the antiquity of the Samaritan text.

The People's Bible Encyclopedia (ed. Charles Randall Barnes, 1924) when describing Zare'tan, cites Harper, Bib. and Mod. Disc., p. 148 [sic. 184, 1890], to the effect "Near Beisân there is an unusually large mound called Tel es Sârem. A good deal of clay is found here, and a mile to the south is a stream the Arabic of which means 'red river.' ... It has been suggested that the waters of the Jordan were suddenly dammed up by a landslip or similar convulsion. The appearance of the banks, and the curious bends of the river near this place, would seem to support the idea."

This appears to be near the place where Herod the Great built his fortress Amathus, across from which I had earlier suggested as a possible place for a landslide that could block the river Jordan.

Hmmmm DCH