A smoking gun against the JC historicists?

[DCHindley]

That is an anchor. Notice the area around the little girl's knees for the anchor hooks. There are also two horizontal cross marks along its length. That pretty much rules out a tau-rho monogram. I noticed that the p shape at the very top of the vertical member in images of the very popular anchor symbol on coins. It occurs to me that this is the "eye" through which a rope would be threaded. It is formed by pounding the metal at the top of the vertical spindle until the end touches the stem, then welded (by hammering it while red hot) to the stem to form the "eye."

Very imaginative David...... I wonder what Larry Hurtado would make of it?

Here is a better picture:

http://www.livescience.com/42761-ancien ... srael.html

Ah, the famous drinking glass of Easop's stork and the fox story as interpreted by "Fractured Fairy Tales" cartoons of the 1960s. The fox gives the stork a drink in a shallow doggy-dish, which her long beak cannot drink from. She gives the fox a drink in what looks like a really skinny flower vase, which of course the fax cannot lap from. The "p" thingy is the handle.

- OR -

It is a giant "bling" worn by an Ancient Roman rock star and the "p" thingy is the eyelet for the gold chain.

[beowulf]

I'm not sure what the dispute is here about P66. P66 uses a tau-rho ligature several times in John 19 to abrreviate words such as crucify and cross. This isn't really in dispute.

Hurtado draws implications from this that may be over speculative, But the use of the tau-rho ligature in P66 to abbreviate stauros type words is simply true.

Andrew Criddle

Hurtado acknowledges the tau-rho has pre-Christian usage, but does not acknowledge what it was. We now see it was used by the person who killed & usurped the last real King of the Jews. That is a significant usage.

used by the person who killed & usurped the last real King of the Jews.

Antigonus was not the real king of the Jews and Herod was not an usurper. Antigonus was the invaders candidate and nothing more than that.

Moreover, the Parthians invaded Syria in the year 40, and they much preferred to see an anti-Roman ruler on the throne of Palestine. Antigonus, who was genius enough to make use of such an excellent opportunity, promised them largesums of gold, and, according to common report, five hundred female slaves besides, so that they immediately put a troop of five hundred warriors at his disposal.

The appearance of these Parthians at the gates of Jerusalem, where daily riots took place between the partizans of Antigonus, who held possession of the Temple fortress, and those of Hyrcanus, or more correctly of Antipater, caused the balance to turn in favor of the former. Hyrcanus and Phasael in vain endeavored to win over the Parthians. The former was sent a captive to Babylon, after suffering the mutilation of his ears, which rendered him henceforth unfit for the office of high priest. Phasael beat out his brains against a stone wall.

Herod, too weak for open resistance, fled from Jerusalem, and in the year 40 Antigonus was officially proclaimed king and high priest by the Parthians. His three years' reign, however, was one continuous struggle. His antagonist, Herod, succeeded in having himself declared king of Judea by Rome

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/artic ... mattathias

[maryhelena]

Stylised tau-rho .......


https://www.pinterest.com/pin/383087512025778558/

Stylised tau-rho between two peacocks ...



ÈP monogram
Mausoleum of Galla Placidia, Ravenna 5th century
Crowned christogram between two staurograms
and an achievement of a clipeus with a christogram supported by two peacocks.
Sarcophagus in the Sant´Apollinare in Classe in Ravenna. The inscription reads: HIC REQUIESCAT IN PACE THEODORVS VB ARCHIEPISCOPVS. [10]

http://www.hubert-herald.nl/Christogram.htm

Stylised tau-rho.......


Mausoleum of Galla Placidia, Ravenna 5th century

http://www.hubert-herald.nl/Christogram.htm

Someone could not make up his mind what image of the cross to use....


Sarcophagus of the Resurrection. The oldest and grandest passion-sarcophagus. The cross of the Christ monogram and laurel refers to Christ's victory over death. Originating from the catacomb of Domitilla.

http://www.belpaese.nl/cgi-bin/photodet ... mer=091297

[maryhelena]

Antigonus was not the real king of the Jews and Herod was not an usurper. Antigonus was the invaders candidate and nothing more than that.

Nonsense!

Antigonus managed to throw out the Romans for three years.

Hyrancus II was a puppet king under Rome.

Antigonus fought for independence, for freedom from political domination - and you want to infer that such a goal is somehow illegitimate..... On your premise South Africa should have kept Nelson Mandela in prison for life - and how about Jomo Kenyetta - and the many more that fought for their people's freedom.

Nelson Mandela:

This then is what the ANC is fighting. Their struggle is a truly national one. It is a struggle of the African people, inspired by their own suffering and their own experience. It is a struggle for the right to live. During my lifetime I have dedicated myself to this struggle of the African people. I have fought against white domination, and I have fought against black domination. I have cherished the ideal of a democratic and free society in which all persons live together in harmony and with equal opportunities. It is an ideal which I hope to live for and to achieve. But if needs be, it is an ideal for which I am prepared to die.
http://www.anc.org.za/show.php?id=3430

Nelson Mandela was no man's puppet. Neither was Antigonus. Mandela, and the ANC, used many sources to secure their freedom. Likewise, did Antigonus. That Antigonus lost his cause and Mandela won his - does not devalue his struggle for the freedom of his people from political domination.



SH55100. Bronze AE 22, Meshorer TJC 36d, Hendin 1162, F, weight 12.936 g, maximum diameter 22.4 mm, die axis 180o, Jerusalem mint, obverse Hebrew inscription, Mattatayah the High Priest and Council of the Jews, around and between the horns of a double cornucopia; reverse BACIΛEΩC ANTIΓONOY (of King Antigonus), ivy wreath tied with ribbons; scarce; $120.00 (€90.00)

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalo ... om/Coins2/

[beowulf]

Parthia invaded Syria and captured Jerusalem. Antigonus was the dog of Parthia and the murderer of countless Jews in his quest for personal glory.


The Romans responded by elevating Herod to the rank of King and he and the Romans defeated Parthia and their dog .


http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/artic ... mattathias

[maryhelena]

Parthia invaded Syria and captured Jerusalem. Antigonus was the dog of Parthia and the murderer of countless Jews in his quest for personal glory.


The Romans responded by elevating Herod to the rank of King and he and the Romans defeated Parthia and their dog .


http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/artic ... mattathias

Antigonus a "dog"....

I searched your link and did not find the word 'dog' in it......what I did find is this:

The last king of pure Jewish blood fell before the intrigues of the first king of Judea not entirely of Jewish birth.

Please take your nonsense elsewhere....

[beowulf]

Antigonus was made king by the invading armies of Parthia. He was a puppet king of Parthia. A dog of Parthia .When Parthia was routed their dog paid the price for his bloody collaboration with the conquering Parthians

Antigonus was the emperor who wore no clothes, A murdering dog

Herod was as Jewish as the quisling Antigonus and a supporter of Rome

[maryhelena]

Antigonus was made king by the invading armies of Parthia. He was a puppet king of Parthia. A dog of Parthia .When Parthia was routed their dog paid the price for his bloody collaboration with the conquering Parthians

Antigonus was the emperor who wore no clothes, A murdering dog

Herod was as Jewish as the quisling Antigonus and a supporter of Rome

Methinks you might do well to consider this: "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter". If the side of the fence that you want to sit on considers Angigonus a terrorist - that's your prerogative. The alternative position, a positive position, is also possible. Keep in mind also, that as the historical context changes, that terrorist also changes. One would not be welcome at any negotiation table by bad-mouthing ones opponent. The road to reconciliation has to be cleared of such schoolyard tantrums.

[MrMacSon]

Antigonus was made king by the invading armies of Parthia.

....

Herod was as Jewish as the quisling Antigonus and a supporter of Rome

The issue here, in this thread, is the symbolism used when one anointed king replaced another.

[beowulf]

Antigonus was made king by the invading armies of Parthia.

....

Herod was as Jewish as the quisling Antigonus and a supporter of Rome

The issue here, in this thread, is the symbolism used when one anointed king replaced another.

The symbolism requires an appropriate symbol. Antigonus was the enemy of a large section of the Jews as a murderer and collaborator. He cannot be used as a symbol .


The invasion of Syria by Pacorus was a major war and Antigonus sought to profit by it as a servant of the new masters.
The 'peace treaty' of Brundisium between Octavian and Antonius allowed Antonius to dispatch troops to liberate the occupied territories .
Antigonus styled himself as a 'Particus King' and ended dying for that as it was the case with the Roman renegade , , Q. Labienus when Parthia lost the war.



"The War of Perusia encouraged the Parthians to invade Syria and prevented Antonius from intervening. Led by Pacorus, the king's son and by the renegade Roman, Q. Labienus, who styled himself' Particus Imperator', the horsemen swept over Syria, killing Decidius Saxa the governor; then they overrun southern Asia as far as the coast of Caria in the west , in the south all the lands from Syria down to Jerusalem.
At Jerusalem Pacorus set up a king ,Antigonus, of a cadet branch of the royal house. The damage and disgrace was immense. But the domination of the nomads was transient. Brundisium freed the energies of Rome

Antonius at once dispatched Ventidius against the enemy, with Ventidius went as his legate or quaestor, the Marsian Poppaedius Silo.
In three great battles, at the Cilician Gates, at Mount Amanus (39 BC) and at Gindarus (38 BC) he shattered and dispersed the Parthians. Both Pacorus and Labienus perished."

The Roman Revolution
Ronald Syme
Page 223
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Roman-Revolutio ... 0192803204
Paperback: 592 pages
Publisher: Oxford Paperbacks; Revised edition (8 Aug 2002)
Language: English
ISBN-10: 0192803204
ISBN-13: 978-0192803207