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Re: Three Assumptions

Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:21 am
by Ben C. Smith
MrMacSon wrote: Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:24 pmThanks. I think all that encapsulates the greyness of the concept and transmission of it then and today, and, mostly as an aside, aligns with some of the Livius commentary.
No problem.

The concept may seem gray to us, but I think it is often actually a very logical consequence of the simple fact that, in the Hebrew scriptures, certain promises were made which were said to be binding forever. Israel was to inherit the land "forever" (Exodus 32.13; Joshua 14.9). The priests are due their portion "forever" (Leviticus 7.34). The Davidic line is to occupy the throne "forever" (2 Samuel 7.13). And so on.

So what happens when, for example, Israel is kicked out of the land, the priests are ousted and denied their role in the temple cult, and/or the Davidic line is no longer on the throne? Well, those promises cannot have been false; they were uttered by God himself, after all. The current sorry state of affairs must be a temporary setback, and the time is coming when all will be set right again, the promises vindicated. So the expectation is set up that a future Israelite generation will once again be in complete control of the land, that a future priest will once again be performing sacrifices in the temple, and that a future Davidic king will once again be sitting on the throne. And that is the essence of what we think of as messianism. The connection between the present priest or king (or prophet, for that matter) having been anointed for his present task of ruling and a future priest or king (or prophet) being anointed for his future task of restoring rule is, then, extremely tight and obvious. Within the worldview of predictive prophecy, in fact, it is virtually the only thing that makes sense. If David's seed is not currently on the throne, and if no future son of David is ever going to be on the throne, then the divine promise to David was false, and that cannot be. The promise of "forever" created the messianic expectation.

We see exactly the same impulse at work in the updating of those predictive prophecies themselves. For example, Jeremiah 29.10-14 predicted that, after 70 years of serving Babylon, the Jewish nation would return from its state of exile, its captivity ended (verse 14). But that did not exactly happen. Some people were able to return after a while, but they were still captive to foreign powers, even while dwelling in the land. So Daniel 9.1-27 updates Jeremiah's prediction (verse 2) to 70 weeks of years. Later still, 4 Ezra 12.10-35 updates Daniel's prediction (verses 11-12). The predictions, made by God himself through his own prophets, cannot have been false. So they have to be reinterpreted, spun in a way that makes sense of what has really happened over the course of history.

There is a parallel sort of logic behind resurrection, as well. This time the logic does not depend upon predictive prophecy; rather, it depends upon the idea that God is just. Ideally, with a just ruler governing the land, those who do right will be rewarded: not in some future utopia, but rather in the here and now; and, in fact, Israel seems to have gone a long time without any concept of resurrection at all. What happens, however, when doing right under a tyrant like Antiochus Epiphanes will actually get you killed like the Maccabean martyrs? How can God still be considered just if some people are murdered for doing right while others, in the nostalgic past, were able to live out full, happy lives for doing right? Well, one solution is resurrection (Daniel 12.2): God will raise the dead and then balance the scales. He is a just God, after all.

This is not to say that all Jews at all times and all places were engaged in this sort of thinking: not at all. But those who were engaged in it were, I argue, simply following prominent parts of their own cultural logic.

Re: Three Assumptions

Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:45 am
by John2
Ben wrote:
So what happens when, for example, Israel is kicked out of the land, the priests are ousted and denied their role in the temple cult, and/or the Davidic line is no longer on the throne? Well, those promises cannot have been false; they were uttered by God himself, after all. The current sorry state of affairs must be a temporary setback, and the time is coming when all will be set right again, the promises vindicated. So the expectation is set up that a future Israelite generation will once again be in complete control of the land, that a future priest will once again be performing sacrifices in the temple, and that a future Davidic king will once again be sitting on the throne. And that is the essence of what we think of as messianism. The connection between the present priest or king (or prophet, for that matter) having been anointed for his present task of ruling and a future priest or king (or prophet) being anointed for his future task of restoring rule is, then, extremely tight and obvious. Within the worldview of predictive prophecy, in fact, it is virtually the only thing that makes sense. If David's seed is not currently on the throne, and if no future son of David is ever going to be on the throne, then the divine promise to David was false, and that cannot be. The promise of "forever" created the messianic expectation.

This is why I think post-OT messianism is a reasonable "assumption," because post-OT Judaism is messianic. I find it hard to understand the thinking that post-OT Judaism would not have been messianic for Jews who revered the OT. It is in the DNA of Judaism and presumably all the more so during times of disruption, as you say. This is plain as day in the Dead Sea Scrolls, and I don't buy the argument that they represent the views of an isolated group. As Charlesworth notes:

From a sociological perspective, the Damascus Document reflects the existence of people having a different way of life from the rest of the Jewish population, but not completely isolated from the common social and religious institutions of Israel. Echoing the language of the Temple Scroll and 4QMMT [4Q394-399], the Damascus Document speaks of people living in the "city of the Temple" (CD 12.1-2) or in "the camp" (10.23), as well as living in "the cities of Israel" (12.19) or in the "camps" (7.6; 19.2), people who "take women and beget children" (7.6-7; cf. 12.1-2; 15.5-6) and are "owners" of properties (9.10-16), have a job and earn a salary (14.12-17), and attend the Temple in Jerusalem and offer sacrifices (12.17-21; 16.13-14).

https://books.google.com/books?id=TmVYV ... on&f=false


And since the majority of the DSS are dated to the Herodian era (as VanderKam and Flint note here: https://books.google.com/books?id=SBMXn ... ts&f=false) and reflect Fourth Philosophic concerns (e.g., rejection of the oral Torah and the Pharisaic establishment and the expectation that "one from their country should become governor of the habitable earth," as Josephus puts it), I view them as being largely Fourth Philosophic writings (along with older writings people brought with them when they joined or became involved with the Fourth Philosophy). And the Fourth Philosophy was certainly engaged with the wider world, and as Josephus notes in Ant. 18.1.1, "the nation was infected with this doctrine to an incredible degree."

In the big picture in the first century BCE to the first century CE (with respect to Josephus' "ambiguous oracle" and Christians and other Fourth Philosophic factions) I think the key to "messianism" is Daniel, and as Flint notes:
No less than seventeen of the scrolls found at Qumran are relevant for the study of Daniel, and present the reader with two surprises of unequal impact. The first surprise is the relatively high number of copies (eight) of the biblical book in the Qumran caves. Despite its relatively small size (twelve chapters), Daniel is outnumbered by only eight other compositions -counting both biblical and non-biblical- at Qumran ... The discoveries at Qumran have yielded several other writings that either mention Daniel or contain material that is in some way related to, or of relevance to, the biblical book of Daniel. This new material, none of which was previously known to scholars, bears powerful testimony to several traditions related to "Daniel" among at least some Jews in the last century BCE and the first century CE.

https://books.google.com/books?id=NuZlN ... an&f=false

And since Christians also rejected the oral Torah and the Pharisaic establishment and revered Daniel and emerged during the Herodian era (like the majority of the DSS), I see them as being a faction of the Fourth Philosophy that expected (in their particular way) that "one from their country should become governor of the habitable earth" (i.e., "the Messiah").

Re: Three Assumptions

Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:05 pm
by Charles Wilson
Ben C. Smith wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:21 amThe concept may seem gray to us, but I think it is often actually a very logical consequence of the simple fact that, in the Hebrew scriptures, certain promises were made which were said to be binding forever. Israel was to inherit the land "forever" (Exodus 32.13; Joshua 14.9). The priests are due their portion "forever" (Leviticus 7.34). The Davidic line is to occupy the throne "forever" (2 Samuel 7.13). And so on.

So what happens when, for example, Israel is kicked out of the land, the priests are ousted and denied their role in the temple cult, and/or the Davidic line is no longer on the throne? Well, those promises cannot have been false; they were uttered by God himself, after all. The current sorry state of affairs must be a temporary setback, and the time is coming when all will be set right again, the promises vindicated...
This was the Guiding Thought behind British Israelism.

Jeremiah 41:10 (RSV):

[10] Then Ish'mael took captive all the rest of the people who were in Mizpah, the king's daughters and all the people who were left at Mizpah, whom Nebu'zarad'an, the captain of the guard, had committed to Gedali'ah the son of Ahi'kam. Ish'mael the son of Nethani'ah took them captive and set out to cross over to the Ammonites.

Zedekiah and all of the males were killed and that ends the rulership, correct?
[Note: Oops. "Zedekiah". Not "Hezekiah". Dyslexia.]

For those who MUST find the Proof that God's Word never fails, even today, a look into Jeremiah finds a Solution. The daughters of Zedekiah were taken away to Egypt and then the Isles and the Line continued, lost to the rest of the world.

CW

Re: Three Assumptions

Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:06 pm
by neilgodfrey
Ben C. Smith wrote: Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:24 pm Actually, I think it is fairly straightforward, if not easy, at least once one divests oneself of modern preconceptions and looks to the texts themselves for the definition.
Yet in recent decades it seems a growing number of scholars specializing in the subject of early messianism are finding the conventional wisdom fails at so many points and the question is not so simple anymore. I have mentioned some of those scholars and linked to many more; the latest name prominent in the discussion is Matthew Novenson and in his most recent book he finds a need to even defend the notion that there was such a concept as a "messianic idea" at all in Second Temple times. And he himself deconstructs and moves well away from the traditional notion of the supposed "messianic idea" of ancient Judaism that many of us still have.
Ben C. Smith wrote: Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:24 pm I have demonstrated that this "ambiguous oracle" derives from Daniel . . . .
And your excellent comment convinced me that Josephus did indeed have a Daniel passage/cluster of motifs in mind. But even though you limit the role such a prophecy played in sparking "the revolt" Steve Mason surely offers the simplest explanation for it appearing in Josephus's narrative in his Jewish War. (Josephus fits the pattern of many quick witted captives desperate to save their own lives with flattering prophecies.)

Re: Three Assumptions

Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:17 pm
by neilgodfrey
John2 wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:45 am It is in the DNA of Judaism and presumably all the more so during times of disruption, as you say.
This view of Second Temple Judaism, let alone messianism, has been coming under growing criticism in recent decades.

John2 wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:45 am This is plain as day in the Dead Sea Scrolls, and I don't buy the argument that they represent the views of an isolated group. As Charlesworth notes:
From a sociological perspective, the Damascus Document reflects the existence of people having a different way of life from the rest of the Jewish population, but not completely isolated from the common social and religious institutions of Israel. Echoing the language of the Temple Scroll and 4QMMT [4Q394-399], the Damascus Document speaks of people living in the "city of the Temple" (CD 12.1-2) or in "the camp" (10.23), as well as living in "the cities of Israel" (12.19) or in the "camps" (7.6; 19.2), people who "take women and beget children" (7.6-7; cf. 12.1-2; 15.5-6) and are "owners" of properties (9.10-16), have a job and earn a salary (14.12-17), and attend the Temple in Jerusalem and offer sacrifices (12.17-21; 16.13-14).

https://books.google.com/books?id=TmVYV ... on&f=false
Charlesworth is quite correct to point out that the DSS address the cult and politics and other texts in the wider society, but Charlesworth also criticizes your broader position when it is presented by another scholar:

The most recent and erudite Introduction to the New Testament is by Professor Helmut Koester. Frequently he seems to assume the myth that Jews expected a Messiah and knew what functions he would perform. In describing the beliefs of the Samaritans, he states “that just like the Jews the Samaritans expected the coming of the Messiah.” No discussion is focused on the problem of dating the Samaritan ideas,9 and no proof is offered to support the claim that “Jews expected the coming of a Messiah.”


John2 wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:45 am And since the majority of the DSS are dated to the Herodian era (as VanderKam and Flint note here: https://books.google.com/books?id=SBMXn ... ts&f=false) and reflect Fourth Philosophic concerns (e.g., rejection of the oral Torah and the Pharisaic establishment and the expectation that "one from their country should become governor of the habitable earth," as Josephus puts it), I view them as being largely Fourth Philosophic writings (along with older writings people brought with them when they joined or became involved with the Fourth Philosophy). And the Fourth Philosophy was certainly engaged with the wider world, and as Josephus notes in Ant. 18.1.1, "the nation was infected with this doctrine to an incredible degree."
Old truths are being dismantled. As you write in your byline, Show me something built to last.

Re: Three Assumptions

Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:25 pm
by neilgodfrey
Charles Wilson wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:05 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:21 am So what happens when, for example, Israel is kicked out of the land, the priests are ousted and denied their role in the temple cult, and/or the Davidic line is no longer on the throne? Well, those promises cannot have been false; they were uttered by God himself, after all. The current sorry state of affairs must be a temporary setback, and the time is coming when all will be set right again, the promises vindicated...
This was the Guiding Thought behind British Israelism.
Yes, indeed. And there is perhaps a warning bell here. British Israelism interpreted those prophecies in that way because they read them naively, as if they really were written in the time of the Kingdoms of Samarian and Judah.

Yet if archaeological and literary evidence does indeed point to their composition in either the Persian or Hellenistic eras then we need a better informed understanding of what those passages meant to their original authors and audiences. (I've posted above some links to a couple of those discussions, and Ben here has elaborated on one of those -- proleptic fulfilment.

Re: Three Assumptions

Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:26 pm
by John2
Neil wrote:
Charlesworth is quite correct to point out that the DSS address the cult and politics and other texts in the wider society, but Charlesworth also criticizes your broader position when it is presented by another scholar:


The most recent and erudite Introduction to the New Testament is by Professor Helmut Koester. Frequently he seems to assume the myth that Jews expected a Messiah and knew what functions he would perform. In describing the beliefs of the Samaritans, he states “that just like the Jews the Samaritans expected the coming of the Messiah.” No discussion is focused on the problem of dating the Samaritan ideas,9 and no proof is offered to support the claim that “Jews expected the coming of a Messiah.”

I'd like to see more of what Charlesworth says about this. I gather (and correct me if I'm wrong) that this citation is from his 1992 book The Messiah, and I don't have access to it, if so.

Old truths are being dismantled.

I don't know if I would call VanderKam and Flint's book I linked to "old" (I gather it first came out in 2002) or the datings that they give "truths" (since I gather paleography is an educated guessing game), but I find that the "guesses" they cite and what the DSS say fit a Fourth Philosophic context very well, such as the rejection of the oral Torah, which Josephus says "we were before unacquainted withal."

Re: Three Assumptions

Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:55 pm
by neilgodfrey
John2 wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:26 pm I don't know if I would call VanderKam and Flint's book I linked to "old" (I gather it first came out in 2002)
Old ideas are still being published. Dismantling the old ideas does not happen overnight.

Re: Three Assumptions

Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:09 pm
by neilgodfrey
John2 wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:26 pm Neil wrote:
Charlesworth is quite correct to point out that the DSS address the cult and politics and other texts in the wider society, but Charlesworth also criticizes your broader position when it is presented by another scholar:


The most recent and erudite Introduction to the New Testament is by Professor Helmut Koester. Frequently he seems to assume the myth that Jews expected a Messiah and knew what functions he would perform. In describing the beliefs of the Samaritans, he states “that just like the Jews the Samaritans expected the coming of the Messiah.” No discussion is focused on the problem of dating the Samaritan ideas,9 and no proof is offered to support the claim that “Jews expected the coming of a Messiah.”

I'd like to see more of what Charlesworth says about this. I gather (and correct me if I'm wrong) that this citation is from his 1992 book The Messiah, and I don't have access to it, if so.
A subsequent chapter [in Jacob Neusner et al. (eds.), Judaisms and their Messiahs at the Turn of the Christian Era (New York: Cambridge University Press, 1987)] is by J.H. Charlesworth, “From Jewish Messianology to Christian Christology. Some Caveats and Perspectives”, states:
It is pertinent now to ask, as a logical sequence to our first question, “Is is not true that almost all (first-century Palestinian) Jews expected in the near future a Messiah?” The answer is clearly “no.” (p. 250)

As we have stated, the terminus technicus MShYH – “the Messiah,” “the Anointed One,” or “anointed one” – is found in early Jewish literature only in the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Old Testament Pseudepigrapha. But even in these two collections it is not abundant. Of ninety-six significant documents produced by the Qumran Essenes, the Damascus Document, only 11Q Melchizedek, 4Q Patriarchal Blessings, lQSa, and 1QS contain this technical term. The latter document – the Rule of the Community – furthermore, is preserved partially in a fragment from Cave IV; and it does not contain the famous reference to two Messiahs. Of 65 documents in the Pseudepigrapha many are too late for inclusion in our present quest; yet only a small minority of the remaining early Jewish writings contain explicit references to the Messiah. We have presented and discussed each of these, namely the Psalms of Solomon, the Similitudes of Enoch (which are entwined with intricate thoughts about the Messiah and his other titles), 4 Ezra, and 2 Baruch (the authors of the latter two have inherited but not really digested a wide range of traditions regarding the Messiah). In many of the Pseudepigrapha, namely Jubilees, the Testament of Moses, Pseudo-Philo, and the Life of Adam and Eve, the term “the Messiah” is surprisingly and conspicuously absent.

Some early Jews did not look for the coming of a Messiah. They contended that God himself would act; he would punish the gentiles. (p. 250)
Further from my comment in that blog post:

Charlesworth does express the common apology for Josephus’s silence with respect to messianic movements that argues that he did not like to remind readers that the Jewish hostility towards Rome was inspired by such an interest. On the other hand we need to keep in mind that there is also the positive argument (expressed above — see Horsley) to explain why Josephus described the movements of the 50s (a generation following that of Jesus) as prophetic rather than messianic. I find the argument less than cogent given that Josephus is quite capable of distinguishing between good and bad prophetic movements; furthermore, he does speak about messianic interests and he ties them in with the later part of the first century when outright warfare was under way. This is quite a different set of circumstances from the period of the early part of the first century CE.

Re: Three Assumptions

Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:40 pm
by John2
neilgodfrey wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:09 pm
A subsequent chapter [in Jacob Neusner et al. (eds.), Judaisms and their Messiahs at the Turn of the Christian Era (New York: Cambridge University Press, 1987)] is by J.H. Charlesworth, “From Jewish Messianology to Christian Christology. Some Caveats and Perspectives”, states:
It is pertinent now to ask, as a logical sequence to our first question, “Is is not true that almost all (first-century Palestinian) Jews expected in the near future a Messiah?” The answer is clearly “no.” (p. 250)

As we have stated, the terminus technicus MShYH – “the Messiah,” “the Anointed One,” or “anointed one” – is found in early Jewish literature only in the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Old Testament Pseudepigrapha. But even in these two collections it is not abundant. Of ninety-six significant documents produced by the Qumran Essenes, the Damascus Document, only 11Q Melchizedek, 4Q Patriarchal Blessings, lQSa, and 1QS contain this technical term. The latter document – the Rule of the Community – furthermore, is preserved partially in a fragment from Cave IV; and it does not contain the famous reference to two Messiahs. Of 65 documents in the Pseudepigrapha many are too late for inclusion in our present quest; yet only a small minority of the remaining early Jewish writings contain explicit references to the Messiah. We have presented and discussed each of these, namely the Psalms of Solomon, the Similitudes of Enoch (which are entwined with intricate thoughts about the Messiah and his other titles), 4 Ezra, and 2 Baruch (the authors of the latter two have inherited but not really digested a wide range of traditions regarding the Messiah). In many of the Pseudepigrapha, namely Jubilees, the Testament of Moses, Pseudo-Philo, and the Life of Adam and Eve, the term “the Messiah” is surprisingly and conspicuously absent.

Some early Jews did not look for the coming of a Messiah. They contended that God himself would act; he would punish the gentiles. (p. 250)


I wouldn't suppose that "almost all" first century CE Jews expected "the Messiah" to arrive then (or at any particular time) either. I gather from Josephus that it was a Fourth Philosophic belief during the first century CE, though I understand you have a different interpretation of the "ambiguous oracle," which is fine, I just don't agree with it, is all, But I think it is reasonable to assume that all Jews who were aware of the OT (by reading it or hearing it from others) were at least aware of the idea that "the Messiah" would come. That's what I mean by messianism being in the DNA of post-OT Judaism.

And I take issue with Charlesworth's language here. "The Messiah" is found only in the Dead Sea Scrolls and OT Pseudepigrapha, and even in those writings it is not abundant? Is it in these writings or is it not, is my only question, and it is.


Further from my comment in that blog post:

Charlesworth does express the common apology for Josephus’s silence with respect to messianic movements that argues that he did not like to remind readers that the Jewish hostility towards Rome was inspired by such an interest. On the other hand we need to keep in mind that there is also the positive argument (expressed above — see Horsley) to explain why Josephus described the movements of the 50s (a generation following that of Jesus) as prophetic rather than messianic. I find the argument less than cogent given that Josephus is quite capable of distinguishing between good and bad prophetic movements; furthermore, he does speak about messianic interests and he ties them in with the later part of the first century when outright warfare was under way. This is quite a different set of circumstances from the period of the early part of the first century CE.


I don't think Josephus is "silent" about the messianism of the Fourth Philosophy at all. He says that they expected "about that time one from their country should become governor of the habitable earth," and my guess is that this refers to "the Messiah" since this governor was expected to rule over "the habitable earth" and not just Judea.