John2 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 05, 2019 1:48 pmBut footnote 7 for this says something interesting and has some other translations of this passage followed by a comment by Lightfoot:
Henry mentions that the opinion of Hegesippus on this matter is also mentioned by Gregory of Nyssa, Or. catech. 40, PG 45 c. 104D, who reports Hegesippus as saying the opposite.
....
I'm not sure what to make of Lightfoot's comment, but who is Henry, and where can I find what Gregory of Nyssa says about Hegesippus saying the opposite of what Gobar cites (Or. catech. 40, PG 45 c. 104D? What the heck is
that)? I'd be much obliged for any help.
PG 45, column 104D =
Patrologia Graeca 45 (by Migne), column 104, section D. This is from Gregory of Nyssa,
Catechetical Oration 40. I checked this claim
before (scroll down to the bottom of the post), but I can find no mention of Hegesippus in this text.
John2 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 05, 2019 2:41 pm
And here's another question I will need help with because I don't know or have access to the Greek. Ben noted that Hegesippus says that "no eye/no ear" was a
saying and thus it was not written, but in the same sentence (at least in
this translation) Hegesippus says that this saying is contrary to what "the Holy Scriptures" (in this case meaning the NT)
say ("these are empty words and that those who
say them are liars since the Holy Scriptures
say ..."). What's going on
here?
Two different words for "say." The word φημί is commonly used for oral reports, especially in expressions like "they say." The word λέγω is more generic, and is very commonly used of what the scriptures "say."
John2 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 05, 2019 2:28 pm
And here's what confuses me. Whether it is an interpolation or not, I get the impression that 1 Cor. 2:9 and 1 Clem. 34 are citing a variant of the OT (as per pseudo-Philo; cf. Is. 64:4: "Since ancient times no one has heard, no ear has perceived, no eye has seen any God besides you, who acts on behalf of those who wait for him").
Yet according to Gobar, Hegesippus thought this was a corruption of Mt. 13:16 ("But blessed are your eyes, for they see; and your ears, for they hear"), which seems to be the opposite of what 1 Cor. and 1 Clem. say (""Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither has it entered into the heart of man, the things which He has prepared for those who wait for Him"), and it is in response to Is. 6:9-10:
Go and tell this people, "Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving." Make the hearts of this people calloused; deafen their ears and close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed.
And if I recall correctly, the pseudo-Philo variant isn't in Isaiah. So what the
heck is going on here?
I believe that this debate parallels, or is similar to, the ancient controversy over Moses versus Isaiah. Moses said that no one can see God and live, whereas Isaiah claims to have seen God (and, by implication, lived to tell us about it).
Some of the rabbis eventually settled on the notion that "eyes have not seen, nor ears heard" what lies in wait for the faithful
after the Messianic Era. All the prophecies of peace and prosperity were of the Days of the Messiah, whereas what comes after those days, in the Age to Come, is beyond even the prophetic ken.
What I think is at stake in this context involving Hegesippus is exactly which point on the eschatological timetable one thinks one is inhabiting. Is one still looking forward to wonders beyond human imagination, or has that part of the timeline already been achieved through Christ? It is futurist (or expected) eschatology versus preterist (or realized) eschatology. This same game is played elsewhere in the extant record with different playing pieces. Is the resurrection still future, for example, or is it past, as Hymenaeus and Philetus taught (2 Timothy 2.16-18)? The Pauline epistles themselves appear to proceed from a generally futurist orientation in what are often considered the genuine letters to a generally preterist orientation in pseudo-Paulines such as Colossians and Ephesians.
Yes, the saying itself is a composite of different verses from Isaiah. But the
application of that saying is what made it controversial, I think.
John2 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:15 pmI see that this book (
https://books.google.com/books?id=QaFu2 ... ye&f=false) says that "Similar sayings are found in the
Ascension of Isaiah, where Pauline influence is to be discerned," along with a bunch of other apocryphal writings, and, interestingly, the Talmud (San. 99a).
I have
posted the quote from the Ascension of Isaiah elsewhere. And that passage in the Talmud is part of the rabbinical discussion I mentioned above.
ETA: And let me add a few more such quotations from my notes:
Plutarch, How the Young Person Should Study Poetry 17e: 17e And let these [words] of Empedocles be at hand: "Thus these things are not to be seen by men, nor heard, nor comprehended with the mind." / 17e Καὶ τὰ Ἐμπεδοκλέους ἔστω πρόχειρα ταυτί· Οὕτως οὔτ´ ἐπιδερκτὰ τάδ´ ἀνδράσιν οὔτ´ ἐπακουστὰ οὔτε νόῳ περιληπτά.
Testament of Jacob 8.8: 8 And he showed me all the resting places and all the good things prepared for the righteous, and the things that eye has not seen nor ear heard, and have not come into the heart of men, that God has prepared for those who love him and do his will on earth (for, if they end well, they do his will).
Apocalypse of Peter 6-7: 6 And as we prayed, suddenly there appeared two men standing before the Lord towards the East, on whom we were not able to look; 7 for there came forth from their countenance a ray as of the sun, and their raiment was shining, such as eye of man never saw; for no mouth is able to express or heart to conceive the glory with which they were endued, and the beauty of their appearance.
Talmud, Sanhedrin 99a: 99a .... Rabbi Hiyya ben Abba said in Rabbi Johanan's name, "All the prophets prophesied [all the good things] only in respect of the Messianic era; but as for the world to come, 'The eye has not seen, O Lord, beside you, what he has prepared for him who waits for him.'" Now, he disagrees with Samuel, who said, "This world differs from [that of] the days of the Messiah only in respect of servitude to [foreign] powers." ....
Talmud, Berachoth 34b: 34b .... R. Hiyya b. Abba also said in the name of R. Johanan: "All the prophets prophesied only for the days of the Messiah, but as for the world to come, 'Eye hath not seen, oh God, beside Thee.' These Rabbis differ from Samuel; for Samuel said, 'There is no difference between this world and the days of the Messiah except [that in the latter there will be no] bondage of foreign powers, as it says, "For the poor shall never cease out of the land."'" ....
Gregory of Nyssa, Catechetical Oration 40: ἀναγκαῖον ἂν εἴη τούτοις προσθεῖναι καὶ τὸ λειπόμενον, ὅτι οὔτε τὰ ἀγαθὰ τὰ ἐν ἐπαγγελίαις τοῖς εὖ βεβιωκόσι προκείμενα τοιαῦτά ἐστιν ὡς εἰς ὑπογραφὴν λόγου ἐλθεῖν. πῶς γὰρ ἃ οὔτε ὀφθαλμὸς εἶδεν, οὔτε οὖς ἤκουσεν, οὔτε ἐπὶ καρδίαν ἀνθρώπου ἀνέβη; οὔτε μὴν ἡ ἀλγεινὴ τῶν πεπλημμεληκότων ζωὴ πρός τι τῶν τῇδε λυπούντων τὴν αἴσθησιν ὁμοτίμως ἔχει. ἀλλὰ κἂν ἐπονομασθῇ τι τῶν ἐκεῖ κολαστηρίων τοῖς ὧδε γνωριζομένοις ὀνόμασιν, οὐκ ἐν ὀλίγῳ τὴν παραλλαγὴν ἔχει. πῦρ γὰρ ἀκούων ἄλλο τι παρὰ τοῦτο νοεῖν ἐδιδάχθης ἐκ τοῦ προσκεῖσθαί τι τῷ πυρὶ ἐκείνῳ ὃ ἐν τούτῳ οὐκ ἔστι· τὸ μὲν γὰρ οὐ σβέννυται, τούτου δὲ πολλὰ παρὰ τῆς πείρας ἐξεύρηται τὰ σβεστήρια, πολλὴ δὲ τοῦ σβεννυμένου πρὸς τὸ μὴ παραδεχόμενον σβέσιν ἡ διαφορά. οὐκοῦν ἄλλο τι, καὶ οὐχὶ τοῦτό ἐστι. πάλιν σκώληκά τις ἀκούσας μὴ διὰ τῆς ὁμωνυμίας πρὸς τὸ ἐπίγειον τοῦτο θηρίον ἀποφερέσθω τῇ διανοίᾳ· ἡ γὰρ προσθήκη τοῦ ἀτελεύτητον εἶναι ἄλλην τινὰ φύσιν παρὰ τὴν γινωσκομένην νοεῖν ὑποτίθεται. ἐπεὶ οὖν ταῦτα πρόκειται τῇ ἐλπίδι τοῦ μετὰ ταῦτα βίου, καταλλήλως ἐκ τῆς ἑκάστου προαιρέσεως κατὰ τὴν δικαίαν τοῦ θεοῦ κρίσιν ἀναφυόμενα τῷ βίῳ, σωφρονούντων ἂν εἴη μὴ πρὸς τὸ παρὸν ἀλλὰ πρὸς τὸ μετὰ τοῦτο βλέπειν, καὶ τῆς ἀφράστου μακαριότητος ἐν τῇ ὀλίγῃ ταύτῃ καὶ προσκαίρῳ ζωῇ τὰς ἀφορμὰς καταβάλλεσθαι καὶ τῆς τῶν κακῶν πείρας δι' ἀγαθῆς προαιρέσεως ἀλλοτριοῦσθαι, νῦν μὲν κατὰ τὸν βίον, μετὰ ταῦτα δὲ κατὰ τὴν αἰωνίαν ἀντίδοσιν. / It will be necessary to add to what has been said this remaining statement also; viz. that those good things which are held out in the Gospels to those who have led a godly life, are not such as can be precisely described. For how is that possible with things which “eye hath not seen, neither ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man?” Indeed, the sinner’s life of torment presents no equivalent to anything that pains the sense here. Even if some one of the punishments in that other world be named in terms that are well known here, the distinction is still not small. When you hear the word fire, you have been taught to think of a fire other than the fire we see, owing to something being added to that fire which in this there is not; for that fire is never quenched, whereas experience has discovered many ways of quenching this; and there is a great difference between a fire which can be extinguished, and one that does not admit of extinction. That fire, therefore, is something other than this. If, gain, a person hears the word “worm,” let not his thoughts, from the similarity of the term, be carried to the creature here that crawls upon the ground; for the addition that it “dieth not” suggests the thought of another reptile than that known here. Since, then, these things are set before us as to be expected in the life that follows this, being the natural outgrowth according to the righteous judgment of God, in the life of each, of his particular disposition, it must be the part of the wise not to regard the present, but that which follows after, and to lay down the foundations for that unspeakable blessedness during this short and fleeting life, and by a good choice to wean themselves from all experience of evil, now in their lifetime here, hereafter in their eternal recompense.
Theodore A. Bergren, "Christian Influence on the Transmission History of 4, 5, and 6 Ezra," in Jewish Apocalyptic Heritage in Early Christianity, edited by James C. Vanderkam & William Adler, pages 110-111: In 7:96, the phrase “and they will see what no eye has seen” is inserted into a description of the joys of the elect. This statement is close to a passage quoted by Paul in 1 Cor 2:9-10 (probably derived from Isa 64:4) and has numerous other parallels in ancient Jewish, Christian and Islamic literature. Although it is not certain that the phrase in Arabic 1 derives directly from 1 Corinthians, such an origin is possible. .... In [4 Ezra] 5:40, the expanded Armenian text includes an element similar to that noted above in the Arabic 1 version of 7:96: “...the good things from him which eye has not seen and ear has not heard and have not occurred to man and man has never considered, which God has prepared for his beloved ones.” The literal approximation of this text to 1 Cor 2:9, which is much closer and more extensive than was the case in Arabic 1, makes it almost certain that the Armenian refers to the Pauline passage.