Epiphanius on the Ebionites

[Secret Alias]

Yes. Less is more https://www.google.com/search?q=%22less ... e&ie=UTF-8 as they say in show business.

[Secret Alias]

The closest modern analogy I can think of to the Ebionites in Irenaeus is Santa Claus or the stork that delivers babies. The people in Irenaeus's age clearly knew that Christianity derived from Judaism in some way. I think with all the ups and down, the chaos and fear that the Jewish people went through in the period 66 - 138 CE, that there was no clear way to make Christianity 'fit' into Judaism. In 138 CE the letters of Paul, whatever form they took, were the private possession of a certain body of Christians. I think various versions of the gospel, the letters of Paul and Patristic material circulated in the middle and late second century. There were no inscriptions, physical remains to piece together the mystery. Irenaeus's Ebionites are simply a way of explaining why presents end up under the Christmas tree or mommy brought home a brother for you. This wasn't history it was myth.

[Secret Alias]

Statements made by Epiphanius on the Ebionites:

There are only a handful of Nasarenes, perhaps one or two, above the Upper Thebaid and beyond Arabia; and the remnant of Ossaeans, no longer practicing Judaism but joined with the Sampsites, who in their turn < live > in the< territory > beyond the Dead Sea. Now, however, they have been united with the sect of the Ebionites. (3) And as a result they have lapsed from Judaism—as though a snake’s tail or body had been cut off and a snake with two heads and no tail had sprouted from it, grown on and attached to a body chopped in half. = no evidence for this report/made up by Epiphanius

Ebionites are very like these Cerinthians and the Nazoraeans; and the sect of the Sampsaeans and Elkasaites was associated with them to a degree = first part based on proximity in Irenaeus

On the Nazoraeans: For they acknowledge both the resurrection of the dead and that all things have been created by God,35 and they declare that God is one, and that his Son is Jesus Christ. = This is said of the Ebionites at Iren. 1.26.2. Cf. Hipp. Refut. 7.34.1; PsT 3.

On the Nazoraeans - They disagree with Jews because of their belief in Christ; but they are not in accord with Christians because they are still
fettered by the Law—circumcision, the Sabbath, and the rest.36 (6) As to Christ, I cannot say whether they too are misled by the wickedness of Cerinthus and Merinthus, and regard him as a mere man—or whether, as the truth is, they affi rm that he was born of Mary by the Holy Spirit. = Cf. Iren. 1.26.2 (of the Ebionites); Eus. H. E. 3,27.3. The whole section here shows signs that Epiphanius is reading from the section on the Ebionites while explaining the Nazoraeans.

On the Nazoraeans - They have the Gospel according to Matthew in its entirety in Hebrew.48 For it is clear that they still preserve this as it was originally written, in the Hebrew alphabet. But I do not know whether they have also excised the genealogies from Abraham till Christ. = section drawn from Irenaeus

On the Ebionites - Following these and holding views like theirs, Ebion,2 the founder of the Ebionites, arose in the world in his turn as a monstrosity with many forms, and practically represented in himself the snake-like form of the mythical many-headed hydra. He was of the Nazoraeans’ school, but preached and taught other things than they = Epiphanius making Irenaeus's account of the Ebionites fit with a presumption that the first Jewish Christians were called Nazoraeans.

For it was as though someone were to collect a set of jewelry from various precious stones and an outfit of varicolored clothing and tog himself up conspicuously. Ebion, in reverse, took any and every doctrine which was dreadful, lethal, disgusting, ugly and unconvincing, thoroughly contentious, from every sect, and patterned himself after them all. (3) For he has the Samaritans’ unpleasantness but the Jews’ name, the opinion of the Ossaeans, Nazoraeans and Nasaraeans, the form of the Cerinthians, and the perversity of the Carpocratians. And he wants to have just the
Christians’ title—most certainly not their behavior, opinion and knowledge, and the consensus as to faith of the Gospels and Apostles! 1,4 But since he is midway between all the sects, as one might say, he amounts to nothing. The words of scripture, “I was almost in all evil, in the
midst of the church and synagogue,”3 are applicable to him. (5) For although he is Samaritan, he rejects the name because of its objectionability. And while professing himself a Jew, he is the opposite of the Jews—though he does agree with them in part as I shall prove later with God’s help, through the proofs of it in my rebuttal of them = this is just a reflection of Epiphanius's own making sense of how Irenaeus's Ebionites fit in the middle of the various other names and reporting Epiphanius has uncovered

For this Ebion was contemporary with the Jews, and < since he was > with them, he was derived from them.= Epiphanius has Hippolytus's story about Ebion the founder of the Ebionites or some such text

[John2]

what does being "cool with Paul" mean though?

It means what Jerome says in On Isaiah 9:1-4:

The Nazarenes … try to explain this passage in the following way … Messiah came and his proclaiming shone out … Later, however, the proclaiming became more dominant, that means the proclaiming was multiplied, through the good news of the emissary Paul who was the last of all the emissaries. And the good news of Messiah shone to the most distant tribes and the way of the whole sea. Finally the whole world, which earlier walked or sat in darkness and was imprisoned in the bonds of idolatry and death, has seen the clear light of the good news.

It's just like what Paul says in Gal. 1:23-24 and 2:9-10:

They [Jewish Christians] only heard the account: “The man who formerly persecuted us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy.” And they glorified God because of me.

And recognizing the grace that I had been given, James, Cephas, and John —those reputed to be pillars— gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, so that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. They only asked us to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do.

The only issue I can see that Jewish Christian leaders (if not all Jewish Christians) had with Paul was teaching Jews that observing the Torah was not necessary, as per the Letter of James and Acts 21:17-24:

When we arrived in Jerusalem, the brothers welcomed us joyfully. The next day Paul went in with us to see James, and all the elders were present. Paul greeted them and recounted one by one the things that God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry.

When they heard this, they glorified God. Then they said to Paul, “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. But they are under the impression that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or observe our customs. What then should we do? They will certainly hear that you have come.

Therefore do what we advise you. There are four men with us who have taken a vow. Take these men, purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know that there is no truth to these rumors about you, but that you also live in obedience to the law.

Now, I figure they might not have been aware of Paul's MO and that his observance of the Torah wasn't sincere, as per 1 Cor. 9:20 ("To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law, though I myself am not under the law, so as to win those under the law"), but he at least appeared to them to observe the Torah and to not teach Jews to not observe it and he spread "the good news of Messiah," and that's what I mean by them being "cool with Paul."

[John2]

John2, what will you do if we ever find an early unorthodox writing claiming that the church fathers made up this tradition and apostolic succession? Just wondering because you give them (apostolic fathers) a lot of credulity.

I would take it into consideration. Until then, we have what we have and it says what it says and I'm just trying to make sense of it.

There are probably reasons beyond time why Papias, Hegesippus, etc writing's no longer exist, and why you only get select quotes.

I figure it's because their views weren't orthodox by Eusebius' time.

[John2]

The idea the early church was a 'virgin' uncorrupted by heresy is an obvious piece of fiction. Pauls own letters contradict it!

Only regarding the necessity of Jewish Torah observance and not about what Paul says was "of first importance" in 1 Cor. 15:3-11:

… that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas and then to the Twelve … Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles … Whether, then, it was I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.

And James appears to have been a patient person and hoped that Paul (or anyone else who "wandered from the truth") would turn "from the error of his way" regarding the necessity of Jewish Torah observance in 5:19-20:

My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, consider this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

[Secret Alias]

Oh come on. Like we've got a telephone up to our ears hearing him speak! This is SO bizarre. This one step removed from calculating the age of the earth from the chronology in Genesis.

[John2]

Oh come on. Like we've got a telephone up to our ears hearing him speak! This is SO bizarre.

We have what we have and I "hear" what I hear. And though Christianity seems "bizarre" to me, I generally have an easier time following what the sources for it say than what you say (and maybe that's a compliment). But I try my best to understand both.

[Secret Alias]

But this is not how we should proceed. I've demonstrated that

1. Epiphanius has NO first evidence for any contact with the Ebionites.
2. He uses at least two sources - Irenaeus and an expansion on Irenaeus which identifies Ebion as the founder of the Ebionites
3. Epiphanius is TOTALLY reckless with his source material. At best he uses Irenaeus as a 'main theme' but feels free to borrow from the account of the Ebionites and add the information to other groups.

[davidmartin]

John2,
what about the Clementine's where Paul is an opponent?
look, I've been around Christian groups and see how they fight and its basically like a woman's fight with scratching and hair pulling, very unseemly and then they storm off. its just my default assumption the same thing occurred in the church, and they covered it up. my beliefs come from human nature. i actually think there was a historical Jesus that i can believe, i can even believe in miracles, but that the early church was united? no God could achieve that feat.