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Re: Jesus/Joshua as the anti-Moses just as the Serpent is the anti-YHWH

Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:38 pm
by Giuseppe
davidmartin wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:06 pm If you ask me these were the earlier ones..
I would disagree. The Gnostics who rehabilitate (even only partially) the creator are already going to judaize themselves without knowing it.

Hence for me the term "Judaizers" means:
  • Before the entry of the Gnostics: the mere enemies of Paul (who was adorer of YHWH)
  • After the entry of the Gnostics: all the Christians who want to rehabilitate even only partially the creator. For example: the seoararionists as Cerinthus.

Re: Jesus/Joshua as the anti-Moses just as the Serpent is the anti-YHWH

Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:46 pm
by davidmartin
that is a fair point, and the Valentinians might fit in with what your saying well

however there is also some Gnostics that said there is only one God and they think YHWH is not accurate, because God is everywhere.. sort of pantheistic. Pantheism itself places limits on Gnostic dualism. The Gospel of Thomas fits in with this

Re: Jesus/Joshua as the anti-Moses just as the Serpent is the anti-YHWH

Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:57 pm
by Joseph D. L.
Simple, Price is wrong.

It's clear both symbolically and texturally that the serpent in Eden and that in Numbers 21 are not held to be the same and in fact have two different and respective meanings.

Note Giuseppe, just because someone you regard as an authority says something doesn't mean that they are beyond reproach.

Re: Jesus/Joshua as the anti-Moses just as the Serpent is the anti-YHWH

Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:22 am
by Giuseppe
The connection of that Serpent (of John 3:14) with the Serpent of Genesis is raised implicitly by Justin:

And the physiological discussion concerning the Son of God in the Timæus of Plato, where he says, He placed him crosswise in the universe, he borrowed in like manner from Moses; for in the writings of Moses it is related how at that time, when the Israelites went out of Egypt and were in the wilderness, they fell in with poisonous beasts, both vipers and asps, and every kind of serpent, which slew the people; and that Moses, by the inspiration and influence of God, took brass, and made it into the figure of a cross, and set it in the holy tabernacle, and said to the people, If you look to this figure, and believe, you shall be saved thereby. Numbers 21:8 And when this was done, it is recorded that the serpents died, and it is handed down that the people thus escaped death. Which things Plato reading, and not accurately understanding, and not apprehending that it was the figure of the cross, but taking it to be a placing crosswise, he said that the power next to the first God was placed crosswise in the universe.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0126.htm

According to Justin, Plato heard from Moses the story of a crucified serpent and, without understanding that story, Plato wrote that the creator of the world (="he") placed the Son of God crosswise in the universe.

But we know already that the creator of the world was the evil demiurge for the Gnostics.

Hence the Gnostics would have agreed perfectly with Justin, here:

the demiurge crucified the Son of God (=not the god of the Jews) crosswise in the universe. When? At the origin of the world.

And what is allegory of that Son of God? The Serpent raised by Moses.

But what Serpent was at the origin of the world, for the Gnostics? The Serpent of Genesis.

Hence the Demiurge crucified that Serpent (=Jesus).

Hence the Gospel Jesus is the historicized Serpent of Genesis (for the Gnostics).

Re: Jesus/Joshua as the anti-Moses just as the Serpent is the anti-YHWH

Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 9:17 am
by Giuseppe

ὅτι ἐκ τοῦ πληρώματος αὐτοῦ ἡμεῖς πάντες ἐλάβομεν, καὶ χάριν ἀντὶ χάριτος·


Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given

(John 1:16)

ἀντὶ as anti-thesis, as anti-Moses, as anti-demiurge.

Hence the sense is:
Out of his fullness we have all received grace by the supreme god in opposition to the grace by the demiurge already given

(John 1:16)

And so we can realize John 1:17:

For the law (and the relative grace) was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ