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Re: John was possessed by the spiritual Christ in the gospel read by Celsus

Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:17 am
by Ben C. Smith
Giuseppe wrote: Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:11 am
Ben C. Smith wrote: Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:02 amI do not know of any instances of its applicability to the idea of being possessed by a spirit.
Can a man possessed by the spirit and pressed by the spirit in the wilderness be compared to a "reed etc"?

Καὶ εὐθὺς τὸ Πνεῦμα αὐτὸν ἐκβάλλει εἰς τὴν ἔρημον

(Mark 1:12)
Do you want to be unique or do you want to be correct?

Re: John was possessed by the spiritual Christ in the gospel read by Celsus

Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:23 am
by Giuseppe
Ben C. Smith wrote: Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:17 am
Giuseppe wrote: Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:11 am
Ben C. Smith wrote: Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:02 amI do not know of any instances of its applicability to the idea of being possessed by a spirit.
Can a man possessed by the spirit and pressed by the spirit in the wilderness be compared to a "reed etc"?

Καὶ εὐθὺς τὸ Πνεῦμα αὐτὸν ἐκβάλλει εἰς τὴν ἔρημον

(Mark 1:12)
Do you want to be unique or do you want to be correct?
I don't understand this moralism, Ben. The title of the thread makes it explicit that the idea here is to collect any possible "evidence" that can be used to support the view of a Gospel where John (and not Jesus) was the recipient of the Christ.

It is not a dogmatic point by me. (You know: I am dogmatic only about Barabbas as part of an anti-Marcionite polemic).

Re: John was possessed by the spiritual Christ in the gospel read by Celsus

Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:27 am
by Ben C. Smith
Giuseppe wrote: Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:23 am
Ben C. Smith wrote: Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:17 am
Giuseppe wrote: Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:11 am
Ben C. Smith wrote: Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:02 amI do not know of any instances of its applicability to the idea of being possessed by a spirit.
Can a man possessed by the spirit and pressed by the spirit in the wilderness be compared to a "reed etc"?

Καὶ εὐθὺς τὸ Πνεῦμα αὐτὸν ἐκβάλλει εἰς τὴν ἔρημον

(Mark 1:12)
Do you want to be unique or do you want to be correct?
I don't understand this moralism, Ben.
"Moralism" is not the right word in this context.
The title of the thread makes it explicit that the idea here is to collect any possible "evidence" that can be used to support the view of a Gospel where John (and not Jesus) was the recipient of the Christ.
That is great, and I am all in favor. I am saying that one of your suggested pieces of evidence looks like it falls flat right away.

Re: John was possessed by the spiritual Christ in the gospel read by Celsus

Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:30 am
by Giuseppe
Ben C. Smith wrote: Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:27 am That is great, and I am all in favor. I am saying that one of your suggested pieces of evidence looks like it falls flat right away.
But is not the Spirit usually compared to a "wind"?

At any case, this piece is weak, I admit this. I raise it only as an abstract possibility... ...only to remember it somewhere.

Re: John was possessed by the spiritual Christ in the gospel read by Celsus

Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:43 am
by Ben C. Smith
Giuseppe wrote: Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:30 am
Ben C. Smith wrote: Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:27 am That is great, and I am all in favor. I am saying that one of your suggested pieces of evidence looks like it falls flat right away.
But is not the Spirit usually compared to a "wind"?
More than that, they are often the exact same word! But not in this case. Had the Greek tradents behind Matthew 11.7 = Luke 7.24 wished the wind (ἄνεμος) to be a cipher for the spirit (πνεῦμα), using the same word would have seemed a minimal first step to take. One could posit that the same word was used in Aramaic or in Hebrew (רוּחַ), and then the Greek tradents missed the point, but that kind of possibility complicates things considerably.
At any case, this piece is weak, I admit this. I raise it only as an abstract possibility... ...only to remember it somewhere.
Well, good. And I often do much the same thing: "bookmark" thoughts for possible use in later reconstructions.
Ben C. Smith wrote: Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:27 am
The title of the thread makes it explicit that the idea here is to collect any possible "evidence" that can be used to support the view of a Gospel where John (and not Jesus) was the recipient of the Christ.
That is great, and I am all in favor. I am saying that one of your suggested pieces of evidence looks like it falls flat right away.
I want to clarify that I am all in favor of looking for such a gospel text; I have no opinion on the possible results of such an endeavor.

Re: John was possessed by the spiritual Christ in the gospel read by Celsus

Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:57 am
by Giuseppe
The reed is mentioned also here:

I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, "Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers.

(Revelation 11:1)

Was Luke 7:24 warning against the identity of the Baptizer with that John? Hardly...

Re: John was possessed by the spiritual Christ in the gospel read by Celsus

Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:02 pm
by Ben C. Smith
The word appears about a dozen times in the New Testament. I doubt all such instances are related to one another.

Re: John was possessed by the spiritual Christ in the gospel read by Celsus

Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:11 pm
by Giuseppe
Stuart has a good exegesis of the equivalent passage in Mcn:

The initial statement about a reed blowing in the wind is meant as a put down, giving an assessment of John as somebody unimportant. In the next line it is surprising to say the least to have Jesus to then ask if people went out to behold a finely dressed man and living among the king’s courtesans. This runs smack in the face of every preconceived notion we have about John as an impoverished outsider to the powerful. We like to think of these two lines as set up for the punch line to follows, as tongue in cheek, but there are no throwaway lines in the gospel all contain some theological significance. John is shown here to be aligned with the world’s wealth and powers, an alignment with those of the demiurge in Marcionite terms.

And when Jesus says that yes John is a prophet, we already know that it should be aligned with the same powers, the same God of creation and the Law. This is confirmed by saying John is not just any prophet, but the one written about in Malachi 3:1. The significance of this statement in Marcion’s text cannot be understated. This is not the scripture of Jesus’ God but of the Jewish God. Yet Jesus is confirming that John is the last prophet of the Creator before the end times (e.g., Malachi 4:5). But he does not accept him as belonging to him. When he says he is the greatest born of women, he is saying that although he ranks highest among the Jewish God’s elect, he is not in the Heaven of his God, and that even the lowliest follower of Jesus, who would be the least in God’s kingdom, is greater. And they are so because the least of his God is greater than the greatest of the demiurge.

http://sgwau2cbeginnings.blogspot.com/2 ... o.html?m=1

These words of Stuart put in mouth to Marcion sound (as words of Marcion) as a veritable apology:

But he does not accept him as belonging to him

This is similar to what I have argued before: the marcionite author is warning against the risk of giving welcome to John in the Christian pantheon. "He is a good person but he is property of the demiurge. Please don't touch him".

Was this apology necessary because even some Gnostic was someway accepting John as connected someway with Jesus? Possibly because some hearsay said that the Jewish John was possessed by the marcionite Christ when the latter descended on Capernaum, not coincidentially a place connected with a "source of water" per Josephus?

Re: John was possessed by the spiritual Christ in the gospel read by Celsus

Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:25 pm
by Ben C. Smith
John is not the "reed shaken by the wind" in Matthew 11.7 = Luke 7.24. Nor is he the palace dweller who wears soft clothing. Antipas is.

Re: John was possessed by the spiritual Christ in the gospel read by Celsus

Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:37 pm
by Giuseppe
Ben C. Smith wrote: Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:25 pm John is not the "reed shaken by the wind" in Matthew 11.7 = Luke 7.24. Nor is he the palace dweller who wears soft clothing. Antipas is.
but is not the reed a symbol of weakness in contrast with the show of power symbolized by a palace of a king?

Hence the Jesus's words are reductive about both John (the mere apocalypticist) and Herod (the mere king). Both mere creatures of the demiurge. And even if John is worthy of reverence, the logic (or the apology?) goes, he remains a creature of the demiurge.