Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

Bernard Muller wrote: ↑Fri Oct 30, 2020 10:02 am

... indisputably places Satan and his demons, the only 'princes and authorities and rulers and powers' of which it speaks, in outer space (yet still 'in this world', distinctly below the first heaven, and thus in the recognized realm of flesh and corruption

In OHJ, page 45, Carrier put the words I bolded in Hebrews Ch. 11. But I could not find them here or anywhere else in the NT.
Did I miss something?

Chapter 11, §5 = chapter 11 of OHJ (the chapter about the epistles), section 5 (the section about the epistle to the Hebrews).

"It" = the Ascension of Isaiah, the nonparenthetical text under discussion. (Carrier appears to be summarizing those kinds of words, not quoting the actual text.)

Bernard Muller wrote: ↑Fri Oct 30, 2020 12:08 pm 1 Co 1:20 "Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?"
αἰῶνος can mean "epoch" of the earth, as also here:
1 Co 2:7
1 Co 2:6 "Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away."
Even more obvious:
1 Co 3:18 "Let no one deceive himself. If any one among you thinks that he is wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise."

Cordially, Bernard

"of this age" in the expression "rulers of this age" is genitive objective: "the rulers who rule this age".

In your examples above, "age" never figures as genitive objective.

The difference is enormous.

to Giuseppe,

"of this age" in the expression "rulers of this age" is genitive objective: "the rulers who rule this age".

In your examples above, "age" never figures as genitive objective.

The difference is enormous.

I don't see why, even with the genitive, a succession of archontes cannot be human rulers.

And Paul had only one bad heavenly entity, Satan, not a multitude of demons:
2 Co 4:4 "whose minds the god of this age [genitive] has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them."

Paul never involved demons as rulers. For him demons are pagan gods: 1 Co 10:20-21.

Cordially, Bernard

Bernard Muller wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 7:18 am
And Paul had only one bad heavenly entity, Satan, not a multitude of demons:
2 Co 4:4 "whose minds the god of this age [genitive] has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them."

Paul never involved demons as rulers. For him demons are pagan gods: 1 Co 10:20-21.

Cordially, Bernard

Paul names Beliar/Belial in 2 Cor 6:15.

Bernard Muller wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 7:18 am

I don't see why, even with the genitive, a succession of archontes cannot be human rulers.

archontes cannot be human rulers, because who rules "this age" (=accusative) cannot be mere mortals. My difficulty in thinking that the Romans can rule "this age" is the relative young age of the Roman Empire when Paul wrote. In addition, the Roman power on Israel was even put in discussion given the Parthian threats and the continue civil wars in Rome.


If he meant "this present time" why couldn't he say so explicitly?

It is evident that by 'this age' he means the entire period from the creation until to present time: Romans didn't rule the earth when Adam was expelled from Eden.

to Giuseppe,

archontes cannot be human rulers, because who rules "this age" (=accusative) cannot be mere mortals. My difficulty in thinking that the Romans can rule "this age" is the relative young age of the Roman Empire when Paul wrote. In addition, the Roman power on Israel was even put in discussion given the Parthian threats and the continue civil wars in Rome.

"Archontes" and "this age" are in the genitive mood. All the words in 'τῶν ἀρχόντων τοῦ αἰῶνος τούτου' are in the genitive mood.
"this age" does not have to cover the times of only the (young) Roman empire, but also the present times, with Romans & chief priests. See next,

If he meant "this present time" why couldn't he say so explicitly?

I do not think Paul had to be more explicit. And in 1 Co 3:18 "Let no one deceive himself. If any one among you thinks that he is wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise.", "in this age" refers to "in the present times".

It is evident that by 'this age' he means the entire period from the creation until to present time: Romans didn't rule the earth when Adam was expelled from Eden.

No, this is not evident. From where did you get that?

Cordially, Bernard

to Irish1975,

Paul names Beliar/Belial in 2 Cor 6:15

What accord has Christ with Be'lial? Or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever?
Belial is a pagan god for Paul. Belial is used by Paul as representative of all pagan gods (or idols as in next verse: 2 Cor 6:16). There is nothing here to indicate Belial is a Satanic figure and co-ruler of this age.

Cordially, Bernard

Bernard Muller wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 11:25 am

It is evident that by 'this age' he means the entire period from the creation until to present time: Romans didn't rule the earth when Adam was expelled from Eden.

No, this is not evident. From where did you get that?

from the fact that Paul says:

(1 Corinthians 2:7)

This means that the interval of time between the creation and the present time coincides with the "age" of the rulers who are referred as not knowing said mystery.

Note that Paul raises a crescendo when he says:


The mystery is so hidden by God that not even the rulers of this age can know it. This means that Paul is open to the possibility that the rulers could know the mystery: afterall, if they existed before the creation of time, then they could know the plans of God. But if Paul cares to deny explicitly the possibility of this knowledge by them, then he is going already to concede that the rulers were supranatural beings and as such potentially able a priori to know similar mysteries.

Bernard Muller wrote: ↑Sat Oct 31, 2020 11:46 amThere is nothing here to indicate Belial is a Satanic figure and co-ruler of this age.

are you ignoring the "poor στοιχεῖα" adored by the same Judaizers (=adorers of YHWH and his Torah) mentioned in Galatians?

to Giuseppe,

Bernard Muller wrote:
There is nothing here to indicate Belial is a Satanic figure and co-ruler of this age.

are you ignoring the "poor στοιχεῖα" adored by the same Judaizers (=adorers of YHWH and his Torah) mentioned in Galatians?

What's that? Give the verse number. What is the connection about what I wrote?

Cordially, Bernard