Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

The cleansing of the temple is absent also in proto-John. So Turmel:


I am more and more persuaded that the cleansing of the temple is pure anti-marcionism in action.

Note also that the condition for the young rich to become a true (marcionite?) disciple, is to sell anything he has, the same sense of the Parable of the Pearl, where a merchant has to sell anything in his possession.

The young rich has to sell before (=become a merchant in virtue of this same action?), and after he has to follow Jesus.

I don't know why I thought it was in Marcion. Oh well.

By your own estimation Marcion is more "Jew" than you give him credit for.

Joseph D. L. wrote: ↑Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:13 am By your own estimation Marcion is more "Jew" than you give him credit for.

Listen, It doesn't matter to me if the first hater of YHWH was a Jew or a Gentile. What matters for me is that the hostility against YHWH is an optimum hermeneutical tool to do marcionite readings of the gospels.

Without that tool, I can't even start to do these readings. I would cut the branch where I sit.

Giuseppe wrote: ↑Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:00 am The cleansing of the temple is absent also in proto-John. So Turmel:

This scene did not belong to the primitive version. Verse 16 in which Christ says that the temple is the abode of his Father is in contradiction with the speech to the Samaritan woman (4:21, 23) in which Christ despises the temple in Jerusalem and accepts only worship in spirit and in truth. And verse 18, where the Jews ask what miracles Jesus did, contradicts 1:23 and 3: 2.

I am more and more persuaded that the cleansing of the temple is pure anti-marcionism in action.

Nonesense. I have no interest in arguing over hypothetical texts that may or may not contain one verse or another. Jesus doesn't "despise" the Temple in John 4:21-23 anymore than he does Mt. Gerizim. He is saying that they both will be obsolete.

The merchants Jesus boots out are Jews who operate the Temple cult. The scene is proto-Catholic anti-Judaism.

Giuseppe wrote: ↑Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:16 am

Joseph D. L. wrote: ↑Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:13 am By your own estimation Marcion is more "Jew" than you give him credit for.

Listen, It doesn't matter to me if the first hater of YHWH was a Jew or a Gentile. What matters for me is that the hostility against YHWH is an optimum hermeneutical tool to do marcionite readings of the gospels.

Without that tool, I can't even start to do these readings. I would cut the branch where I sit.

The only tool here is you. Marcion wasn't aniti-YHWH, his religion functioned under the Jewish mode, and his Christ/Chrestus came down in the very land of the Jews. I don't care if you're unable to read Marcion without your own presuppositions or not. To be honest I don't care what you have to say about anything. Have I made myself clear enough yet?

And I guarantee that Giuseppe will start calling Marcionites the merchants from now on and every instance where that word appears he'll read Marcionite over it, because that's how he operates.

Joseph D. L. wrote: ↑Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:20 am He is saying that they both will be obsolete.

Between two readings, the more probable in my view is usually always the more embarrassing one for the proto-Catholics. Why do you want to mitigate the measure of the rejection of the two temples (in Jerusalem and in Jerizim) by Jesus?

Note that even the need of Mark's false witnesses confirms the Catholic embarrassment about the accusation addressed against Jesus (he has predicted that he will destroy the temple).

Joseph D. L. wrote: ↑Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:20 am
The merchants Jesus boots out are Jews who operate the Temple cult. The scene is proto-Catholic anti-Judaism.

after anything inferred by yourself (!) about the equation "merchants==marcionites" ?

Jesus cleansing the temple may be a mitigation of something even "worse" (from a Catholic POV): Jesus destroying the temple.

THe merchants would be the scapegoat to save the Temple itself, original target of the "wrath" of Jesus.

Note that in Mandean tradition, Jesus will destroy the Temple of Jerusalem because he hates the god adored in it.