Re: What Happened?
Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:40 am
https://earlywritings.com/forum/
Interesting threads, the flight back into the womb...MrMacSon wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:39 amCheers. Will do.
I think what happened within Judaism in the period after 70 CE and whether what the Jewish priests were doing and producing, eg. the Tosefta, had an influence on the gospel writers seems to have largely been overlooked. Hence that potted history and http://www.earlywritings.com/forum/view ... f=6&t=7348 (and previously a repository thread, http://www.earlywritings.com/forum/view ... f=6&t=3591)
Various identities of the early Tannaic/ Mishnaic period are said to be represented in the NT, eg. Aquila "Ponticus" of Sinope.
Some identify Simeon ben Hillel, the son of Hillel the Elder and father of Gamaliel I, with the Simeon of Luke 2 who blessed the infant Jesus.
mlinssen wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 7:37 amIf you look at the Samaritan history, and the Judean one, you see centuries of hate against one another.davidmartin wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 4:40 am There's definitely a bit of a paradox in Christianity's attitude to Judaism, both for and against at the same time!
Both were Jewish, unsure about whether they would be called Israelite, I'm unfamiliar with the exact definition of that over periods of time
The destruction of Mount Gerizim and its temple in 110 BC by John Hyrcanus, consequently being chased, enslaved and circumcised - the Samaritans fled as far as Egypt and almost became extinct.
Then their being denied to worship in the last remaining temple, Jerusalem, in 6 BC - that was grounds enough for the Samaritans rejecting everything Judaic including their religion.
And then the funny thing is, after 70 CE the Judeans go through the exact same ordeal!
So I see Thomas writing after 110 BC, but has to be under Roman rule given logion 100, so after 63 BCE at least.
Around the year 50 CE Samarian-Judean tensions again broke into violence (from p. 271):
- An [Samarian] auxiliary soldier’s provocative insults to Passover pilgrims in the temple court incites Judaean youths to rock-throwing, which gives the soldiers a pretext to react with force.
- In a search for Judaean bandits in the Judaean countryside after a Judaean robbery, an auxiliary soldier finds a copy of the Torah and burns it.
- One or more Galileans travelling to Jerusalem is/are killed in Samaria near modem Jenin (Ginae).
The last-mentioned “incident” becomes a microcosmic image of the later events that led to the final outbreak of war with Rome:
- Judeans plead with the Roman governor to punish the Samarian murderers;
- The Roman governor was believed to have done nothing in response;
- Judeans take “justice” into their own hands and burn Samarian villages neighbouring Judea;
- Meanwhile, Jerusalem elders plead with their people to stop attacking Samarians lest Rome intervenes against them;
- The Roman governor responds by leading the Samarian auxiliary force against the Judeans . . . .
Mason concludes that had Judaean vigilantism against Samarians … escalated as it would a decade later ... . ‘the Jewish revolt against Rome’ could have begun there and then in the early 50s:
In that case it would have been clear that the war arose from regional aggravations. (Mason, 272)
Caesarea was a flashpoint, Mason writes. It was the home of the Samarian dominated auxiliary forces and the centre of the imperial cult. The Judeans were a minority there, and both prosperous and increasingly vulnerable, especially with Nero’s reported contempt for Judeans and with Florus now entering to collect as much gold and silver as possible.
When Nero dispatched Gessius Floras to Caesarea in 64, the elements of a perfect storm were gathering. Florus’ mandate for ruthless revenue collection from Jerusalem’s temple with its world-famous wealth … made the nightmare scenario a reality. Judaeans now faced an auxiliary army itching to have free rein against them, with little constraint from the equestrian prefect if they resisted his efforts to seize temple funds, which they would inevitably do (War 2.277—344). Florus appears to have fully exploited the existing hatreds to intimidate and silence Judaeans or worse. (Mason, 275)
The Judeans in Caesarea desperately begged Rome to allow Caesarea to be recognized as a Judean city. But Nero flatly denied their request. Nero had no patience for Judean complaints about the Samarian force dominating and apparently showing unjust bias against them.
To protect the temple younger priests, ignoring the advice of their elders and the Pharisees, used the temple force to prevent all foreign access to the temple. This act broke with the custom of the temple having allowed sacrifices by all ethnic groups.
The new governor, Cestius, is barraged with complaints about Florus but Florus tells him that it is the Judeans who are in revolt against Roman authority.
https://vridar.org/2020/11/19/what-caus ... -66-74-ce/
MrMacSon wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:39 amI think what happened within Judaism in the period after 70 CE and whether what the Jewish priests were doing and producing, eg. the Tosefta, had an influence on the gospel writers seems to have largely been overlooked. Hence that potted history and http://www.earlywritings.com/forum/view ... f=6&t=7348 (and previously a repository thread, http://www.earlywritings.com/forum/view ... f=6&t=3591)
Various identities of the early Tannaic/ Mishnaic period are said to be represented in the NT, eg. Aquila "Ponticus" of Sinope.
Some identify Simeon ben Hillel, the son of Hillel the Elder and father of Gamaliel I, with the Simeon of Luke 2 who blessed the infant Jesus.
The way they're said to have gone about it - discussions back and forward - makes one wonder how much they reinvented, and, besides the Tosefta and the Mishnah, other things are said to have been written down eg, the Ketuvim, the third and final section of the Tanakh (the Hebrew Bible).
And Christianity - because there's an innate need to be a religiot, I suppose - would have thrived because of it. But it would mean oceans of Jews flooding the poor infant religion, and your suggestion that contemporary Jews made it even into the gospels... would point to Christianity (really) coming into being because, and only because, the destruction of the Jewish temple
It almost all starts to make sense
Significantly, there is no scholarly consensus as to when the Hebrew Bible canon was fixed: some scholars argue that it was fixed by the Hasmonean dynasty, while others argue it was not fixed until the second century CE or even later. Jacob Neusner has argued the notion of a biblical canon was not even prominent in 2nd-century Rabbinic Judaism or even later (Midrash in Context: Exegesis in Formative Judaism, pp.1–22; and Judaism and Christianity in the Age of Constantine, pp.128–145).
For we have not an innumerable multitude of books among us, disagreeing from and contradicting one another, [as the Greeks have,] but only twenty-two books, which contain the records of all the past times; which are justly believed to be divine; and of them five belong to Moses, which contain his laws and the traditions of the origin of mankind till his death. This interval of time was little short of three thousand years; but as to the time from the death of Moses till the reign of Artaxerxes king of Persia, who reigned after Xerxes, the prophets, who were after Moses, wrote down what was done in their times in thirteen books. The remaining four books contain hymns to God, and precepts for the conduct of human life. It is true, our history hath been written since Artaxerxes very particularly, but hath not been esteemed of the like authority with the former by our forefathers, because there hath not been an exact succession of prophets since that time; and how firmly we have given credit to these books of our own nation is evident by what we do; for during so many ages as have already passed, no one has been so bold as either to add any thing to them, to take any thing from them, or to make any change in them; but it is become natural to all Jews immediately, and from their very birth, to esteem these books to contain divine doctrines, and to persist in them, and, if occasion be willingly to die for them.
John2 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 1:40 pm
MrMacSon wrote:
Josephus says there were twenty two books that were thought "to contain divine doctrines" in Ag. Ap. 1.8:Significantly, there is no scholarly consensus as to when the Hebrew Bible canon was fixed: some scholars argue that it was fixed by the Hasmonean dynasty, while others argue it was not fixed until the second century CE or even later. Jacob Neusner has argued the notion of a biblical canon was not even prominent in 2nd-century Rabbinic Judaism or even later (Midrash in Context: Exegesis in Formative Judaism, pp.1–22; and Judaism and Christianity in the Age of Constantine, pp.128–145).
And I break down the twenty two books this way.
1. Five books of Moses = 1) Genesis; 2) Exodus; 3) Leviticus; 4) Numbers; 5) Deuteronomy
2. Thirteen books "from the death of Moses to the reign of Artaxerxes" = 6) Joshua; 7) Judges/Ruth one book); 8) Lamentations; 9) 1 and 2 Samuel (one book); 10) 1 and 2 Kings (one book); 11) 1 and 2 Chronicles (one book); 12) Isaiah; 13) Jeremiah; 14): Ezekiel; 15) Twelve Minor Prophets (one book); 16) Daniel; 17) Ezra-Nehemiah (one book); 18) Job
3. Four books that "contain hymns to God and precepts for the conduct of human life" = 19) Psalms; 20) Proverbs; 21) Ecclesiastes; 22) Song of Songs
I've not been persuaded by any arguments I've seen that the rabbis had a canon of books other than this. They may not have agreed if Ruth and Judges (etc.) should be one book or two or that this or that book should be read with clean hands or imparts unclean hands, but that's not exactly the same thing as having a different canon. I think it's safe to say that by Josephus' time the canon was fixed for normative Jews.
Okay, well, this is my best current guess.I second this call!Come on, Ben, what do YOU think happened?![]()
only a question, Ben: do you think that John the Baptist is definitely a historical figure?Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 6:19 pm Guesses were made on all sides as to his human identity, including John the Baptist (Mark 6.14-16; 8.27-28)
Oh my! The drama, the intrigues, the possibilities for the Samarians now they "have the Romans on their side". Oh this is grand Mac, thanks a million. Steve is a fine mind and writer, and I'll certainly look up Neil'sMrMacSon wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:13 pmmlinssen wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 7:37 amIf you look at the Samaritan history, and the Judean one, you see centuries of hate against one another.davidmartin wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 4:40 am There's definitely a bit of a paradox in Christianity's attitude to Judaism, both for and against at the same time!
Both were Jewish, unsure about whether they would be called Israelite, I'm unfamiliar with the exact definition of that over periods of time
The destruction of Mount Gerizim and its temple in 110 BC by John Hyrcanus, consequently being chased, enslaved and circumcised - the Samaritans fled as far as Egypt and almost became extinct.
Then their being denied to worship in the last remaining temple, Jerusalem, in 6 BC - that was grounds enough for the Samaritans rejecting everything Judaic including their religion.
And then the funny thing is, after 70 CE the Judeans go through the exact same ordeal!
So I see Thomas writing after 110 BC, but has to be under Roman rule given logion 100, so after 63 BCE at least.
Steve Mason has proposed, in A History of the Jewish War, A.D. 66-74, that Jewish activism in Caesarea, the provincial home of the Samarian dominated auxiliary forces and the provincial centre of the imperial cult since the demise of the Herod dynasty, was key to things that instigated the First Roman-Jewish War and the eventual fall of the Second Temple.
via Neil Godfrey's vridar blog -Around the year 50 CE Samarian-Judean tensions again broke into violence (from p. 271):
- An [Samarian] auxiliary soldier’s provocative insults to Passover pilgrims in the temple court incites Judaean youths to rock-throwing, which gives the soldiers a pretext to react with force.
- In a search for Judaean bandits in the Judaean countryside after a Judaean robbery, an auxiliary soldier finds a copy of the Torah and burns it.
- One or more Galileans travelling to Jerusalem is/are killed in Samaria near modem Jenin (Ginae).
The last-mentioned “incident” becomes a microcosmic image of the later events that led to the final outbreak of war with Rome:
- Judeans plead with the Roman governor to punish the Samarian murderers;
- The Roman governor was believed to have done nothing in response;
- Judeans take “justice” into their own hands and burn Samarian villages neighbouring Judea;
- Meanwhile, Jerusalem elders plead with their people to stop attacking Samarians lest Rome intervenes against them;
- The Roman governor responds by leading the Samarian auxiliary force against the Judeans . . . .
Mason concludes that had Judaean vigilantism against Samarians … escalated as it would a decade later ... . ‘the Jewish revolt against Rome’ could have begun there and then in the early 50s:
In that case it would have been clear that the war arose from regional aggravations. (Mason, 272)
Caesarea was a flashpoint, Mason writes. It was the home of the Samarian dominated auxiliary forces and the centre of the imperial cult. The Judeans were a minority there, and both prosperous and increasingly vulnerable, especially with Nero’s reported contempt for Judeans and with Florus now entering to collect as much gold and silver as possible.
When Nero dispatched Gessius Floras to Caesarea in 64, the elements of a perfect storm were gathering. Florus’ mandate for ruthless revenue collection from Jerusalem’s temple with its world-famous wealth … made the nightmare scenario a reality. Judaeans now faced an auxiliary army itching to have free rein against them, with little constraint from the equestrian prefect if they resisted his efforts to seize temple funds, which they would inevitably do (War 2.277—344). Florus appears to have fully exploited the existing hatreds to intimidate and silence Judaeans or worse. (Mason, 275)
The Judeans in Caesarea desperately begged Rome to allow Caesarea to be recognized as a Judean city. But Nero flatly denied their request. Nero had no patience for Judean complaints about the Samarian force dominating and apparently showing unjust bias against them.
To protect the temple younger priests, ignoring the advice of their elders and the Pharisees, used the temple force to prevent all foreign access to the temple. This act broke with the custom of the temple having allowed sacrifices by all ethnic groups.
The new governor, Cestius, is barraged with complaints about Florus but Florus tells him that it is the Judeans who are in revolt against Roman authority.
https://vridar.org/2020/11/19/what-caus ... -66-74-ce/
Well yes, but I thought there was wide concensus about the canonicals using the LXX as source, not anything Hebrew? Although I suppose that the writing down right here took place in the daily tongueMrMacSon wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:48 pm After the Romans destroyed the Second Temple in 70 CE, the rabbis of the following century canonized the books of Ketuvim. Certain of the Ketuvim were associated with figures from Nevi’im (Prophets), probably from early on — Proverbs and Song of Songs with King Solomon, Lamentations with Jeremiah, and Psalms as a whole with King David.
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/articl ... -writings/[/box]
And the Nevi'im contains the books of prophets significant to the Christian Bible.