Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

Leucius Charinus wrote:
Group K1: 1-5 heavens - non Ptolemaic Model

1 Enoch - one heaven
Clementine Recognitions - two heavens
Testament of Solomon - three heavens
3 Baruch - five heavens


Group K2: 7 or 8 heavens - Ptolemaic Model

2 Enoch - seven heavens - fourth is sun and moon
Life of Adam and Eve - seven heavens, 3rd is burial of Adam
Testament of the 12 Patriarchs - seven heavens
Vision of Isaiah - seven heavens
The Mysteries of John the Apostle - seven heavens <<<========------ New Addition
Hypostatis of the Archons - eight heavens
On the Origin of the World - eight heavens

Group K3: More than 8 heavens or an undertermined number
Coptic Apocalypse of Paul - ten heavens
"Pistis Sofia" ('The Books of the Saviour') - Unspecified number of heavens ????
{{{WHICH TEXT ??}}} - 365 heavens

I have added another text to the list of texts which mentions "seven heavens".
The Mysteries of John the Apostle translated by Anthony Alcock


Be well,



LC

Gday all,

neilgodfrey wrote:Once we understand the principles governing their views we can begin to make predictions about the sorts of ideas that would be conceivable to them. We recently saw this when -- if I understood it correctly -- Kapyong was arguing that from what we know of ancient beliefs we would expect them to believe Jesus would take on fleshly form as or when he descended towards the earth (we can call that a prediction on the basis of his hypothesis) and expressed some satisfaction in seeing the quotation from one of the ancients that verified exactly what his understanding predicted what they could have conceived as "natural" to them. His prediction was confirmed thus supporting his hypothesis.

Thanks for that charitable view of what happened Neil.

It was indeed satisfying to hear that Apelles though Jesus "borrowed his body from the stars" because it does seem to support a mythical view of Jesus in which he receives a body when he descends down to the realm of the mutable.

I argue that this region of mutability was what Paul called 'fleshly', and other comments refer to such as 'in the days of his flesh' (Hebrews IIRC?) GakusaieDon disagrees. I have no specific text that says exactly that of course.


Kapyong

(Sorry, I lost track of this thread, coming back to it now.)

Gday all,

Leucius Charinus wrote:
Earlier you stated the following ....

Kapyong wrote:
..... Paul's mention of the Third Heaven suggest he saw it perhaps like so :

There seems to be a problem with this 3rd diagram (and the 4th in the OP) in that the firmament is being placed in the second heaven between the first and the third which in the Ptolemaic system corresponds to the planet Venus or Mercury ruled by Venus and Hermes respectively. Additionally the firmament is generally viewed as the fixed background starts which are out beyond the furthest planets Jupiter (ruled by Zeus) and Saturn (ruled by Saturnus).

What could Paul have been thinking to make such a divergence from the cosmology of his time? Surely those who provided astronomical advice to the Roman Emperors and other rulers already recognised a substantial body of work in which the Ptolemaic heavens were essentially recognised by most.

Yes, this diagram is not right. It was influenced by my views on Jesus mythicism I fear.

I think a Ptolemaic model is most likely for Paul, which would make his universe look maybe like so :

[God]
8. The Firmament
7. Saturn
6. Jupiter
5. Mars
4. Sun
3. Venus (Paul's 3rd heaven)
2. Mercury
1. Luna
(Air)
(Earth)

Paul travelled from Earth to the 3rd heaven and back.
I contend Jesus was seen by mythicist Christians to have travelled from God to Air and back.


Kapyong

Gday all,

Leucius Charinus wrote: I have not had the time yet to read through the text of "Pistis Sofia" ('The Books of the Saviour') for the source references and whether there are any specific references to any number of heavens, or whether the text just puts forward an unspecified number. Does the text mention a specific number of heavens?

I searched the text for 'heaven(s)', which is mentioned quite a few times, but no number is apparent there.

Kapyong

Hi Kapyong,

I added a cupla things to your list ...

Kapyong wrote:
I think a Ptolemaic model is most likely for Paul, which would make his universe look maybe like so :

[God]
8. The Firmament
7. Saturn
6. Jupiter
5. Mars
4. Sun
3. Venus (Paul's 3rd heaven) <<<<<<<============ Level 3
2. Mercury
1. Luna
(Air) <<<======================= Closest approach of the Doherty/Carrier MJ to the planet earth (in the 1st century)?
(Water) <<<=== add 4th Element
(Earth)
(Hades?) <<<=== ???

May as well add water there somewhere.

Paul travelled from Earth to the 3rd heaven and back.

NEWSFLASH

Paul visited the goddess Venus and returned to tell the tale.
He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell



WIKI :

• The Third Heaven ............. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Heaven
  
  The Third Heaven is a division of Heaven in religious cosmology. In some traditions it is considered the abode of God,[1]
  and in others a lower level of Paradise, commonly one of seven.[2]
  
  Judaism
  
  The early books of the Tanakh reference Heaven (Heb. Shamayim), but not a Third Heaven or a specific number of heavens.[1] Heaven is mentioned several times in the first chapter of Genesis. It appears in the first verse as a creation of God. His dividing the light from the darkness in verses 4 and 5 this has been interpreted as the separation of heaven into two sections: day (God's throne) and night (where our universe is contained). In verse 8 heaven refers to the atmosphere over the earth in which birds fly, and in verse 14 it's the setting for the celestial lights, later identified (verse 16) as the sun, moon and stars.[3]
  
  A third concept of Heaven, also called shamayi h'shamayim (שׁמי השׁמים or "Heaven of Heavens"), is mentioned in such passages as Genesis 28:12, Deuteronomy 10:14 and 1 Kings 8:27 as a distinctly spiritual realm containing (or being traveled by) angels and God.[4]
  
  The ambiguity of the term shamayim in the Hebrew Bible, and the fact that it's a plural word, give "heavens" various interpretations regarding its nature, notably the ascension of the prophet Elijah.
  
  In the Second Book of Enoch, Third Heaven is described as a location "between corruptibility and incorruptibility" containing the Tree of Life, "whereon the Lord rests, when he goes up into paradise." (chapter 8) Two springs in the Third Heaven, one of milk and the other of honey, along with two others of wine and oil, flow down into the Garden of Eden. (verse 6)
  
  In contrast with the common concept of Paradise, the Second Book of Enoch also describes a Third Heaven, "a very terrible place" with "all manner of tortures" in which merciless angels torment "those who dishonour God, who on earth practice sin against nature," including sodomites, sorcerers, enchanters, witches, the proud, thieves, liars and those guilty of various other transgressions. (chapter 10)
  
  In the Slavonic version of the Greek Apocalypse of Baruch, also known as 3 Baruch, the author is shown a phoenix, and a dragon residing there is said to eat the bodies of "those that have spent their lives in evil."[5]
  
  In The Legends of the Jews by Louis Ginzberg, this third division of Paradise is said to be, like the other six, "twelve myriads of miles in width and twelve myriads of miles in length," built of silver and gold, and containing "the best of everything there is in heaven."[2]
  
  
  New Testament
  
  An epistle of the Apostle Paul, included in the New Testament, contains an explicit reference to the Third Heaven. In a letter to the Corinthian church he writes,
  
  • "I know a man in Christ" (usually interpreted as: himself) "who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell." (2 Corinthians 12:2–4)
  
  
  The Greek says "caught away", not "caught up" possibly reflecting Jewish beliefs that Paradise was somewhere other than the uppermost heaven.[6] The apparent parallelism of the passage equates the Third Heaven with "Paradise"[1] the traditional destination of redeemed humans and the general connotation of the term "Heaven" in mainstream Christianity.[7] Four allusions to the Apocalypse of Moses occur in close proximity in 2 Corinthians.[8][9] The allusions are (i) "Satan as an angel of light",[10] (ii) the distinction of Satan and the serpent as two beings,[11][12] (iii) "Third Heaven" [13] (iv) "Paradise",[14]
  
  The connection to this Jewish material has led to discussion about whether Paul accepted these traditions, or alternatively whether Paul's vision of Third Heaven is a continuation of his conflict with the Superapostles in the previous chapter, and that the material comes not from his own teaching, but in reply to material similar to Apocalypse of Moses being transmitted by the Superapostles to the Corinthians. Whether this is so partly depends on whether irony is detected in this section.[15] The relationship of Paul the Apostle and Judaism is still widely disputed.

I contend Jesus was seen by mythicist Christians to have travelled from God to Air and back.

In the first or the second century of the common era?

Would you therefore categorise the author of the "Ascension of Isaiah" as a "mythicist Christian"?


Be well,



LC

neilgodfrey wrote:I just added here the post from DCH that clearly points to Philo saying that "Man" rules all creatures under the moon, sea, land and air. Of course there are physical creatures in the air. We also know of the descent of figures through the heavens and how the closer to earth they get the more material or physical is the substance they acquire.

If I remember what I read correctly, the bulk of philosophers classified birds as terrestrial in nature, since they have to sleep on the ground (or in trees). The air is where the minor deities operated, such as daimones (the beings that get things done - make it rain or snow, wind blow, get you sick, cure you, influence worldly events). Of course, the higher you go into the heaven(s) the more rarified the air gets until you get aether. Mmmmm, smells good. No, not the kind Richard Pryor used to freebase cocaine and accidentally set himself on fire with. Oops! Of course, whenever you deal with aether you are dealing with fire ...

DCH

neilgodfrey wrote:And in Clement's Panarion

He did get real flesh, but in the following way. On his way from heaven he came to earth, says Apelles, and assembled his own body from the four elements (Panarion, 44,2,3)

Did you mean Epiphanius?

DCH

Leucius Charinus wrote:Thanks neil godfrey and DCH.

What text is this?

DCHindley wrote:(PHI Abr 1:205) ὅνπερ τρόπον καὶ τὸ φῶς
(PHE ABR 1:205) in the same manner also the light
DCH

It is Philo (PHI = Greek text, and PHE = English Translation of Greek) as found in BibleWorks. The Greek is apparently based on the text in the Cohn–Wendland edition of Philo manuscripts (5 volumes, 1896-1906) with some tweaking by Bibleworks staff. The English translation is from The Works of Philo Judaeus, the Contemporary of Josephus, Translated from the Greek, C. D. Yonge, 4 vols., London: Henry G. Bohn, 1854-55

DCH

Gday all,

Thanks Leucius Charinus for that handy post about the 3rd heaven.

Wiki wrote:The connection to this Jewish material has led to discussion about whether Paul accepted these traditions, or alternatively whether Paul's vision of Third Heaven is a continuation of his conflict with the Superapostles in the previous chapter, and that the material comes not from his own teaching, but in reply to material similar to Apocalypse of Moses being transmitted by the Superapostles to the Corinthians. Whether this is so partly depends on whether irony is detected in this section.[15] The relationship of Paul the Apostle and Judaism is still widely disputed.

It certainly seems as if Paul knew the Apocalypse of Moses, for the reasons mentioned. It seems to me that Paul is validating his apostleship with stories of that vision he had in the 3rd heaven.

Leucius Charinus wrote:

Kapyong wrote:I contend Jesus was seen by mythicist Christians to have travelled from God to Air and back.

In the first or the second century of the common era?

Well, there is the key question isn't it?
Early first would be a mythical Jesus, second could be gnosticism.

Actually, I was a strong defender of mythicism, but after all these discussions I've had and books I've read, I've now come to soften my stance on the issue.Now, I'm more of an agnostic on Jesus than a hard-core mythicist. I've realised my position was biased by some personal experiences I had. I was also a bit disappointed with some of what Carrier had to say - he seems to be reaching a lot.

Leucius Charinus wrote: Would you therefore categorise the author of the "Ascension of Isaiah" as a "mythicist Christian"?

Well, I'm not sure the dust has settled on that yet. On the one hand, GakuseiDon has shown that 'in your form' was probably present in the original, but the text is so mangled, it's hard to be sure of anything.

So, all-in-all, I've backed off to a stance of 'not sure'.

Kapyong

DCHindley wrote:

neilgodfrey wrote:I just added here the post from DCH that clearly points to Philo saying that "Man" rules all creatures under the moon, sea, land and air. Of course there are physical creatures in the air. We also know of the descent of figures through the heavens and how the closer to earth they get the more material or physical is the substance they acquire.

If I remember what I read correctly, the bulk of philosophers classified birds as terrestrial in nature, since they have to sleep on the ground (or in trees). The air is where the minor deities operated, such as daimones (the beings that get things done - make it rain or snow, wind blow, get you sick, cure you, influence worldly events). Of course, the higher you go into the heaven(s) the more rarified the air gets until you get aether. Mmmmm, smells good. No, not the kind Richard Pryor used to freebase cocaine and accidentally set himself on fire with. Oops! Of course, whenever you deal with aether you are dealing with fire ...

For completeness - thanks DCH - the 5th element of nature "aether" or "aither" can be added to "Paul's [Ptolemaic] cosmology". Anyone interested in a modern scientific perspective on this 5th element - an old article is here: http://www.mountainman.com.au/aetherqr.htm

• Paul's [Ptolemaic] cosmology
  
  9. [God]
  8. The Firmament
  7. Saturn
  6. Jupiter
  5. Mars
  4. Sun
  3. Venus (Paul's 3rd heaven) <<<<<<<============ Level 3
  2. Mercury
  1. Luna
  (Aether) <<<=== add 5th Element above the air and beneath the moon
  (Air) <<<======================= Closest approach of the Doherty/Carrier MJ to the planet earth (1st or 2nd century CE)?
  (Water)
  (Earth)
  (Hades?) <<<=== ???

Be well,


LC