On dating the Gospels late e.g. 120CE

[Stephan Huller]

There are countless references in Irenaeus, Tertullian, Origen and other Church Fathers which allude to the same situation. The difficulty is that Paul claimed that he was Christ and was hailed as the Paraclete by the Marcionites. So the line between our 'Jesus' and 'Paul' was clearly blurred. In some sense, Jesus appeared again in Paul who wrote the gospel according to his divine authority. Hence the title 'the gospel of Jesus' or the 'gospel of the Lord' even though it was - in some sense - written by the apostle.

[theomise]

If you want to defend the extraordinary hypothesis that Marcion's Evangelikon and Apostolikon shared the same original author,

Paul wrote the gospel, Paul wrote the apostolic epistles. That is Marcion 101. No need for explanation here.

Are you kidding? Why are you conflating what the Marcionites believed to be true, with what can empirically known to be true?

The fact that you assume they are the same thing is why your posts in this thread come off as Marcionite apologetics.

[Kapyong]

Gday all,

Here is a stupid idea. Could evangelic and apostolic have something to do with 'coming' and 'going' in the original canon?
...
We can see Philo use the verb εὐαγγελίζομαι - to bring glad tidings - throughout his writings. For instance the rising of the seven stars of the Pleiades are said to 'bring glad tidings' of the harvest (Opif Mundi 115). The drowning of the Egyptians in the sea is said by Philo to 'bring glad tidings' in three ways to the ancient Israelites (Somn 2.281). The 'good news' of discovering that Joseph is not dead is twice so described (Ios 245, 250).
...
He also points out that the pagan ἀποστολικός is used in a very specific literary meaning: it is a kind of song (i.e. μέλη), sung upon the departure of a diplomatic delegation or written by someone abroad who sent his poem afterwards.

Could we have stumbled on the Marcionite context for dividing the New Testament into 'evangelic' and 'apostolic? If - as Paul says 'Christ speaks in me' there is good evidence to show that Paul took on Jesus in himself. Perhaps it was argued that the second coming already occurred. So the 'apostolic' represents his (i.e. Jesus) departure now in Paul, in the same way the 'evangelic' represented his arrival as the heavenly sky man.

Note this from Liddell:

ἀποστολ-ικός , ή, όν,
A.sung on departure, “μέλη” Procl. ap. Phot.p.322B.

To put it in the simplest terms possible - 'the evangelic' portion of the NT = the hello, 'the apostolic' portion of the NT = the goodbye, presumably of the same heavenly being.

That seems quite perceptive actually, I can imagine such a meaning, yes.

Kapyong

[Charles Wilson]

to Neil,

This is a very common argument but the problem I've always had with it is that once Mark 13 was presumably found to be false then why was it not redacted to explain away the failure?
The implications of those questions make even less sense to me.

"Luke" did not say the "second coming" will happen soon after the fall of Jerusalem.
"Matthew" ditto. He predicted that "second coming" will happen soon, but relative to the end of distress among the Jews, not the fall of Jerusalem. According to Josephus' Antiquities (93), under the Pharisees turning into rabbis, Judaism was reformed and the distress, caused by the fall of the temple, had disappeared.
So both corrected Mark's failed prophecy.
"John" did not say anything about the fall of Jerusalem. That's another way to correct gMark.

So then you open the question why Mark 13 was preserved intact and included in the canon.

The Literary Nature of Mark is seen in the "Postdiction" that is turned into "Prediction" that "No stone would be left on top of another...' and such. So it is with Mark 13. Mark made a "Prediction" in Mark 13 in the same manner. Please try to see a Literary moment here.

Mark 13: 17(RSV):

[17] And alas for those who are with child and for those who give suck in those days!

Mark is predicting - again - what has already happened, this time with one Alexander Jannaeus when he crucified the 800 Pharisees and slit the throats of their wives and children in front of them as they were dying.

Why is one "easily seen" as Postdiction and the other must be analyzed as a "Failed Prophesy"? Perhaps our "original" single volume "Ur-Mark" was a Litrary Creation.

CW

[theomise]

Who do you think the Marcionites credited with authoring the gospel? Luke? Mark? Jesus?

Many Christians believe Jesus walked on water. Therefore it must be true?

Again, what you are doing is apologetics, not history.

[Stephan Huller]

ἀπόστολ-ος , ὁ,
A.messenger, ambassador, envoy, “ὁ μὲν δὴ ἀ. ἐς τὴν Μίλητον ἦν” Hdt.1.21; ἐς Λακεδαίμονα τριήρεϊ ἀ. ἐγίνετο he went off on a mission to Laced., Id.5.38.

b. commander of a naval force, Hsch.

2. messenger from God, LXX 3 Ki.14.6; esp. of the Apostles, Ev.Matt.10.2, al.

Here is the first example from Herodotus:

Then he left (ἀπόστολος) on an embassy in a trireme to Lacedaemon,
δεύτερα αὐτὸς ἐς Λακεδαίμονα τριήρεϊ ἀπόστολος ἐγίνετο

II. = στόλος, naval squadron or expedition, Lys.19.21; ἀπόστολον ἀφιέναι, ἀποστέλλειν, ποιεῖσθαι, D.3.5, 18.80,107, IG2.809b190.

2. colony, D.H.9.59.

3. = ἀποστολή, of envoys, J.AJ17.11.1.

4. ἀπόστολον, τό, with or without πλοῖον, packet, Pl.Ep.346a, Ps.-Hdt.Vit.Hom.19.

5. ἀπόστολος, ὁ, order for dispatch, of a vessel, CPHerm.6.11 (iii A.D., pl.), PAmh. 2.138.10(iv A.D.), cf. Dig.49.6.1.

6. export-licence, PGnom.162 (ii A.D.).

7. gen. dub., cargo dispatched by order, POxy.522.1,al. (ii A.D.), PTeb.486 (ii/iii A.D.).

and again:

στέλλω , Il.4.294, etc.: fut.
A.“στελῶ” S.Ph.640, Ep. “στελέω” Od.2.287: aor. “ἔστειλα” Th.7.20, Ep. “στεῖλα” Od.14.248: pf. “ἔσταλκα” Arr.An.2.11.9, (ἀπ-, ἐπ-) Isoc.1.2, E.Ph.863: plpf. “ἐστάλκει” Arr.An.3.16.6, (ἐπ-) Th.5.37:—Med., Il.23.285, etc.: fut. “στελοῦμαι” Lyc.604: aor. ἐστειλάμην, Ep. στειλ-, Il.1.433, S.OT434, etc.:—Pass., fut. στα^λήσομαι （ἀπο-) Aeschin.3.114 (v.l.), D.24.93; simple “σταλήσομαι” J.AJ2.4.2: aor. ἐστάλθην (in compd. ἀποσταλθέντες) GDI5186.4 (Crete), cf.Sch. Od.8.21; more freq. ἐστάλην [α^], Pi.O.13.49, Hdt.4.159, (ἐπ-) Th.1.91, etc.: pf. “ἔσταλμαι” Hdt.7.62, Pl.Lg.833d, etc.: plpf. “ἐστάλμην” Philostr. VA3.25, 3pl. “ἐστάλατο” Hes.Sc.288; ἐσταλάδατο and ἐστελάδατο dub.ll.in Hdt.7.89 (leg. ἐστάλατο):—make ready, “οὓς ἑτάρους στέλλοντα καὶ ὀτρύνοντα μάχεσθαι” Il.4.294; “οὔτε κέ σε στέλλοιμι μάχην ἐς κυδιάνειραν” 12.325; νῆα ς. rig or fit her out, Od.2.287, cf. 14.247; “πλοῖον” Hdt.3.52; “ναῦς τριάκοντα” Th.7.20; “τὰ ἐκ νεώς” S.Ph.1077: also στρατιήν, στόλον, στρατόν, fit out an armament, get it ready, Hdt.3.141, 5.64, A.Pers.177, etc.; “ᾧ δὴ τόνδε πλοῦν ἐστείλαμεν” S.Aj.1045: also στέλλειν τινὰ ἐσθῆτι furnish with, array in, a garment, Hdt.3.14; “χιτῶνι” S.Tr.612: c. dupl. acc., “στολὴν ς. τινά” E.Ba.827 sq.; “ς. τινὰς ὡς δεσποίνας” X.HG5.4.5; ς. ἕλκος dress it, Hp.VC14; bury, ἐνὶ γαίῃ ς. A.R.3.205:—Med., στεῖλαί νυν ἀμφὶ χρωτὶ . . πέπλους put on robes, E.Ba.821: c. dat., ἐσθῆτι στειλάμενοι having dressed themselves in . . , Luc.Philops.32: metaph., “ς. κιθάρην” Hermesian.7.2:—Pass., fit oneself out, get ready, ἄλλοι δὲ στέλλεσθε do you others prepare (to compete in the games), Il.23.285; “στρατὸν κάλλιστα ἐσταλμένον” Hdt.7.26, cf. 3.14, 7.93: c. acc. cogn., τὴν αὐτὴν ταύτην ἐστ. ib.62: c. dat., πρεπούσῃ στολῇ ἐστ. Pl.Lg.833d: folld. by a Prep., “ἐσταλμένος ἐπὶ πόλεμον” X.An.3.2.7; ἐς ἄγραν, ἐπ᾽ ἄγρην, Lyc.604, AP 7.535 (Mel.); “περὶ ὄργια” E.Ba.1000 (lyr.): c. inf., ἐστέλλετο ἀπιέναι he prepared to go, Hdt.3.124; “κινεῖν κώπας” E.Tr.181 (lyr.).

II. dispatch, send, “ἐς οἶκον πάλιν” A.Pr.389, cf. E.IA119 (lyr.), etc.; “ἐξ ἑνὸς στείλαντος” S.OC737:—Med. and Pass., set out, or (esp. in aor. 2 Pass.) journey, Hdt.1.165, 3.53, 4.159, 5.92.β́: c. acc. cogn., “ὁδὸν στέλλεσθαι” S.Ph.1416 (anap.), cf. A.R.4.296; “πρὸς θάλασσαν” E.Hel.1527; “ἐπὶ τὸν χρυσόν” Hdt.3.102; “ἐπὶ πλοῖα” X.An.5.1.5; “τούτων γὰρ οὕνεκ᾽ ἐστάλην” S.Aj.328; “ἴδιος ἐν κοινῷ σταλείς” Pi.O.13.49; “οἷπερ ἐστάλην ὁδοῦ” S.El.404; “οἴκαδε Τροίας ἄπο” E.Tr.1264; κατὰ γῆν (v.l. γῆς) X.An.5.6.5: abs., “στέλλου, κομίζου” begone! A.Pr.394: c. acc. loci, ὀμφαλὸν γῆς ς. E.Med.668; “μέλαθρα” Id.HF109 (lyr.); of things, to be sent, S.Tr.776: metaph. of speech, “ἀέρα ἐκπέμπειν στελλόμενον ὑφ᾽ ἑκάστων τῶν παθῶν” Epicur.Ep.1p.27U.

2. Act. intr. in sense of the Pass. (in Hdt. and Trag.), prepare to go, start, set forth, “ἔστελλε ἐς ἀποικίην” Hdt.4.147, cf. 148, 5.125, S.Ph.571,640: c. acc. cogn., “κέλευθον τήνδε . . ἔστειλα” A.Pers.609.

3. Med., set out upon a task, “στέλλεσθαι πρός τι” Pl.Phlb.50e; “ἐπί τι” Id.Sph.230b; ἐπ᾽ αὐτὸ δὴ τοῦτο στελλώμεθα; Id.Lg.892e; “ἐπὶ θήρας πόθον ἐστέλλου” E.Hipp.234 (anap.); “ἐπὶ τυραννίδ᾽ ἐστάλης” Ar.V.487.

III. summon, fetch, bring a person to a place, S.OT860, cf. OC298, Ph.623,983; “ὑμᾶς ἔστειλ᾽ ἱκέσθαι” Id.Ant.165, cf. Ph.60,495; [ἐμπορίαν] Pl.Ep.313e:—Med., σ᾽ ἂν οἴκους τοὺς ἐμοὺς ἐστειλάμην I would have sent for thee . ., S.OT 434:—Pass., Id.OC550 (cj.).

b. ἡ ὁδὸς εἰς Κόρινθον στέλλει leads to Corinth, Luc.Herm.27.

IV. gather up, make compact, esp. as a nautical term, furl, take in, “ἱστία . . στεῖλαν” Od.3.11, 16.353; “στείλασα λαῖφος” A.Supp.723:—Med., “ἱστία μὲν στείλαντο” Il.1.433, cf. Call.Del. 320, Arist.Mech.851b8: abs., στέλλεσθαι (sc. ἱστία) Teles p.10 H., Plb.6.44.6; so ἐπιστολάδην δὲ χιτῶνας ἐστάλατο they girded up, tucked up their clothes to work, Hes.Sc.288, cf. A.R.4.45: abs., “στειλάμενος σιγᾷς” AP11.149.

2. check, Epicur.Ep.1p.7U.; repress, Ph.2.274, etc.:—Med., Plb.8.20.4; λόγον στειλώμεθα draw in, shorten our words, i.e. not speak out the whole truth, E.Ba.669; ς. τὸ συμβεβηκός hush it up, Plb.3.85.7; πρόσωπον στέλλεσθαι draw up one's face, look rueful, Phryn.PS p.107 B.

3. Medic., bind, make costive, τὰ στέλλοντα astringents, opp. τὰ καθαίροντα, Gal.1.221, cf. Alex.Aphr.Pr.Praef.:—Pass., φλέβες στέλλονται shrink up, Nic.Al.193.

4. Med., restrict one's diet, οὔτ᾽ ἂν ἀπόσχοιντο ὧν ἐπιθυμέουσιν, οὔτε στείλαιντο (v.l. ὑποστ-) Hp.VM5; στελλόμενοι τοῦτο avoiding this, 2 Ep.Cor.8.20; “στέλλεο Περσεφόνας ζᾶλον” Supp.Epigr.2.615 (Teos). (Cf. εὔσπολον, κασπολέω, σπολάς, σπόλος, σπελλάμεναι; prob. I.-E. sq[uglide]el-. but not found in cogn. languages; I.-E. st(h)el- is prob. found in OSlav. st[icaron]lati 'spread out', Lat. lātus (fr. *stlātus) 'broad', with which στέλλω may be cogn.)

[Stephan Huller]

Theomise

I am always ONLY interested in what the ancients believed. We're never going to know the truth.

[Stephan Huller]

So notice now the meaning of στέλλω means 'dispatched' - i.e. 'leave' in the NT:

στέλλεσθαι - Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you depart (στέλλεσθαι) yourselves from every brother who walks in rebellion, and not after the tradition which they received from us. (2Thes 3:6)
στελλόμενοι - Departing from this (στελλόμενοι τοῦτο), that any man should blame us concerning this abundance which is administered by us. (2Cor 8:20)

Take a look at this note about this root of 'apostle':

According to linguistic usage, στελλόμενοι τοῦτο (see Kypke, Obss. II. p. 259 f., 344; Schott on 2 Thess. p. 271) may mean: (1) making this arrangement[282] (so, in the main, Kypke, Rückert, Hofmann), in which case there is not brought out any significant bearing of the words, and besides, the aorist participle could not but be expected; or (2) inasmuch as we draw back from this, shrink from and avoid this (Hesychius: στέλλεσθαι· φοβεῖσθαι); so Chrysostom, Theophylact, Luther, and most, following the Itala and Vulgate: “devitantes,” Gothic: “bivandjandans.” Comp. LXX. Malachi 2:5. The latter is to be preferred as most appropriate in the connection, and agreeing with 2 Thessalonians 3:6.

I think the 'hello' and 'goodbye' aspect to the NT might actually be plausible. On the Latin devitantes:

dē-vīto , āvi, ātum, 1,
I.v. a., to avoid, go out of the way of, shun (rare but class.): “illos fluctus,” Plaut. Rud. 1, 2, 79; cf.: “procellam temporis,” Cic. Verr. 1, 3, 8: “malum,” Ter. And. 3, 5, 5: “letum,” Lucr. 3, 1092: “dolorem,” Cic. Tusc. 2, 26: “exiguum censum turpemque repulsam,” Hor. Ep. 1, 1, 44: “suspicionem,” Suet. Tib. 11: δυσφημίαν nominis, id. Aug. 92: “stultitiam,” Vulg. Eccl. 2, 3.

[theomise]

Theomise

I am always ONLY interested in what the ancients believed.

"The ancients" believed all sorts of things - a great diversity of contradictory viewpoints and interpretations. The issue is that you are just picking sides instead of engaging in an independent evidence-based investigation of the matter.

The Marcionites, in your understanding, believed that "Paul" wrote the original gospel, and that the Catholic Luke is a later interpolated version of it. Irenaeus, on the other hand, believed that "Luke" wrote the original and that the Marcionites mutilated it. Now, it is theoretically possible that just one of these views is incorrect, or that both are incorrect.

Simply asserting that "of course the Marcionites are correct" is not an argument.

If you want to establish your conclusion rationally - rather just emotively announcing it - you need provide evidence that is relevant to determining actual authorship - not "who sect X believed the author was".

[Stephan Huller]

On 'the evangelic' meaning hello cf. Luke 2:10:

And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.

καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς ὁ ἄγγελος Μὴ φοβεῖσθε· ἰδοὺ γὰρ εὐαγγελίζομαι ὑμῖν χαρὰν μεγάλην, ἥτις ἔσται παντὶ τῷ λαῷ,