On dating the Gospels late e.g. 120CE

[Kapyong]

Gday all,

Whoops, that's spelled "Sturdy". J V. M. Sturdy wrote Redrawing the Boundaries to refute John A. T. Robinson's Redating the New Testament to reverse the Bishop's pre-70 A. D. dates with mostly post-120 dates. Most posters here should be happy with him.

I found this book online at :
http://bookzz.org/book/841572/b518b1

I'll skim through it and post his datings for those who may be interested.

Kapyong

[Kapyong]

Gday all,

Here is JVM Sturdy's chronology :
40 1 Thessalonians
50 Authentic Core of Galatians; Romans; 1 Corinthians; 2 Corinthians, ?Phillippians, ?Philemon
60
70 Q?
80 G.Mark, Collosians
90
100 Ephesians
110 G.Luke, 1 Peter, Hebrews
120 2 Thessalonians
130 G.Matthew, James, Acts, Jude, 1 Clement
140 G.John, Pastorals, Barnabas, Papias (up to 160)
150 Johanines, 2 Peter, Revelation; Didache, Hermas
160 G.John 21
170
180 Ignatian letters
190
200 Polycarp (as late as 250)

He still puts the first Gospel G.Mark at c.80CE, but G.John in the 140s and a lot in the 130-150 range.


Kapyong

[bcedaifu]

a. "Paul" also writes ὡς προέφην in Galatians 1:9 in Codex Sinaiticus, (one supposes either ultraviolet light, or infrared, employed to read this, seems invisible in the traditional spectrum)

ωϲ προειρηκα και αρτι παλιν λεγω ει τιϲ ϋμαϲ ευαγγελιζε ται παρ ο παρελαβε τε αναθεμα εϲτω

I haven't seen this reading in Galatians 1:9. Do you have a reference?

http://www.codexsinaiticus.org/en/manus ... omSlider=0
The last couple of letters of προέφην are very difficult, in visible light, to distinguish. One supposes that this precious manuscript may have been studied with ultraviolet light (200-400 nm) or infrared source (700-900 nm) to clarify the last two letters.

There is an asterisk by the reading προειρηκα at http://nttranscripts.uni-muenster.de/An ... +start.anv , which signifies the original reading, but a note says that it was corrected to προειρηκαμεν, which is the "standard" (NA28) reading of Uncials 02 (Alexandrinus), 03 (Vaticanus) and P51 (OxyPap XVIII (1941) 1-3).

Thank you very much for the link, David.
“standard” “corrected”, these are good terms, but, also somewhat contentious, in the sense that one seeks here to ascertain dates of origin, using manuscript evidence.
The point, here, to my way of thinking is that Codex Sinaiticus, nominally the oldest extant manuscript, does not employ the “corrected” version. Why not? Can we use Paul's Galatians text to affirm Stephan Huller's epiphany re: mountainman's long standing position that these ancient “patristic” authors' texts, including those of Irenaeus, have been redacted? It is increasingly clear that every text we possess, from the new testament collection, has been redacted at some point during the recopying phase. What is unclear to me, is the advantage gained, by writing προειρηκαμεν, instead of the form found in our oldest text, Codex Sinaiticus: προειρηκα, sans μεν. I would argue that the fifth century redaction here, represents editorial revision “cleaning up” the loose ends, which had not yet been fully recognized in copying “Paul's” brand new epistles, at the time of creation of Codex Sinaiticus.
“hey, where y'goin?”
“I'm head'n west.”

[Stephan Huller]

Another example of Justin - and his references to the specific heretics (including Marcion) - being edited in a later period:

Justin: I venture to repeat what is written in the book of Kings as committed by him, how through a woman's influence he worshipped the idols of Sidon, which those of the Gentiles who know God, the Maker of all things through Jesus the crucified, do not venture to do, but abide every torture and vengeance even to the extremity of death, rather than worship idols, or eat meat offered to idols.

Trypho: I believe, however, that many of those who say that they confess Jesus, and are called Christians, eat meats offered to idols, and declare that they are by no means injured in consequence.

Justin: The fact that there are such men confessing themselves to be Christians, and admitting the crucified Jesus to be both Lord and Christ, yet not teaching His doctrines, but those of the spirits of error, causes us who are disciples of the true and pure doctrine of Jesus Christ, to be more faithful and steadfast in the hope announced by Him. For what things He predicted would take place in His name, these we do see being actually accomplished in our sight. For he said, 'Many shall come in My name, clothed outwardly in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.' Matthew 7:15 And, 'There shall be schisms and heresies.' 1 Corinthians 11:19 And, 'Beware of false prophets, who shall come to you clothed outwardly in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.' Matthew 7:15 And, 'Many false Christs and false apostles shall arise, and shall deceive many of the faithful.' Matthew 24:11 There are, therefore, and there were many, my friends, who, coming forward in the name of Jesus, taught both to speak and act impious and blasphemous things; and these are called by us after the name of the men from whom each doctrine and opinion had its origin. (For some in one way, others in another, teach to blaspheme the Maker of all things, and Christ, who was foretold by Him as coming, and the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, with whom we have nothing in common, since we know them to be atheists, impious, unrighteous, and sinful, and confessors of Jesus in name only, instead of worshippers of Him. Yet they style themselves Christians, just as certain among the Gentiles inscribe the name of God upon the works of their own hands, and partake in nefarious and impious rites.) Some are called Marcians, and some Valentinians, and some Basilidians, and some Saturnilians, and others by other names; each called after the originator of the individual opinion, just as each one of those who consider themselves philosophers, as I said before, thinks he must bear the name of the philosophy which he follows, from the name of the father of the particular doctrine. So that, in consequence of these events, we know that Jesus foreknew what would happen after Him, as well as in consequence of many other events which He foretold would befall those who believed on and confessed Him, the Christ. For all that we suffer, even when killed by friends, He foretold would take place; so that it is manifest no word or act of His can be found fault with. Wherefore we pray for you and for all other men who hate us; in order that you, having repented along with us, may not blaspheme Him who, by His works, by the mighty deeds even now wrought through His name, by the words He taught, by the prophecies announced concerning Him, is the blameless, and in all things irreproachable, Christ Jesus; but, believing on Him, may be saved in His second glorious advent, and may not be condemned to fire by Him [1 Apology 34 - 35].

The specific identification of the Marcionites and Valentinians occurs in a section which mentions the persecution of Christians which did not happen during the reign of Antoninus Pius. As such the reference was written after 177 CE when real persecutions occurred.

[Stephan Huller]

I don't know if by 'edited later' Markus Bockmuehl means 'ten years later' or what I suggest but it is worth citing his work:

"Justin's Dialogue with Trypho is set in the 130s, although it may have been edited later." [Simon Peter in Scripture and Memory: The New Testament]

[Bernard Muller]

to Stephan,
"Syro-Pheonicia" might have been influenced by the "Syropheonician by nation" woman in Mk 7:26.

So that, in consequence of these events, we know that Jesus foreknew what would happen after Him, as well as in consequence of many other events which He foretold would befall those who believed on and confessed Him, the Christ. For all that we suffer, even when killed by friends, He foretold would take place;

The events would happen after Jesus on earth. Certainly there were some deadly persecutions of Christians, denounced by others, from these times to Justin's times.
Cordially, Bernard

[Stephan Huller]

Please point to actual evidence of the persecution of Christians while Justin allegedly wrote these things - especially those which involve (as claimed) the demand to sacrifice to idols, 'false confessors' and the persecutions of Marcionites and Valentinians. These are things described in Irenaeus's account of the martyrdoms at Gaul in 177 CE. There is no evidence for persecutions of this sort in the age of Justin nor does any reasonable person believe that they happened then.

Also you keep refusing to hear what is actually being said by real scholars - not me - about the allotment of Arabia to Syrophoenicia. It's very frustrating. Bernard, you have this habit of refusing to listen to new evidence. It's like your brain won't let you hear what the evidence is saying because it 'knows' already what the right answer is. You want to believe that there is no evidence that corrections were made to Justin's text even though I have pointed out the general consensus that there was. Fine, just continuing to ask stupid distractions like you have been doing. What am I do with you? Again the references are:

Justin, Dialogue with Trypho 78.10, reports this transfer of Damascus from Arabia to Syrophoenicia, but without indicating that it happened when Syria was split into two. Herodian 2.7.4 reports that Pescennius Niger was governor of the whole province in 193 CE. It was soon after this that Septimius Severus divided Syria into Syria Coele and Syria Phoenicia. See Birley (1988: 114). If this is correct then the comment in Justin must be a later gloss or an indication that even before the split Syria had acquired the name Syria Phoenicia.

and again:

Justin writes: "Even though it is now alloted to that which is called Syrophoenicia"

This clause is an addition by a copyist, for the "allotment" was made by Septimius Severus in a.d. 194.

[Stephan Huller]

More difficulties - the post-script about Hadrian in the Apology http://books.google.com/books?id=lhQEAA ... gy&f=false

[spin]

to Stephan,
"Syro-Pheonicia" might have been influenced by the "Syropheonician by nation" woman in Mk 7:26.

So that, in consequence of these events, we know that Jesus foreknew what would happen after Him, as well as in consequence of many other events which He foretold would befall those who believed on and confessed Him, the Christ. For all that we suffer, even when killed by friends, He foretold would take place;

The events would happen after Jesus on earth. Certainly there were some deadly persecutions of Christians, denounced by others, from these times to Justin's times.
Cordially, Bernard

First, the Severan province was not Syro-Phoenicia according to Birley but Syria Phoenice, which means the Phoenician Syria in Greek transliterated into Latin and that indicates that there was another Syria, the "hollow" one (Syria Coele), so rap Stephan on the knuckles if necessary. The construction Syro-Phoenicia is a Roman construction which presupposes the existence of another Phoenicia, Lubo-Phoenicia, ie Carthage. The Romans distinguished the Phoenicia with Beirut by calling it the "Syrian Phoenicia". The presence of Syro-Phoenicia in Justin is easily explained by the fact that he wrote in Rome. That is also the reason why it occurs in Mark.

[andrewcriddle]

Please point to actual evidence of the persecution of Christians while Justin allegedly wrote these things - especially those which involve (as claimed) the demand to sacrifice to idols, 'false confessors' and the persecutions of Marcionites and Valentinians. These are things described in Irenaeus's account of the martyrdoms at Gaul in 177 CE. There is no evidence for persecutions of this sort in the age of Justin nor does any reasonable person believe that they happened then.

Persecutions of Christians were clearly more frequent in the reign of Marcus Aurelius than in that of Antoninus Pius. But there is little evidence that the basic legal position of Christians was changed for the worse by Marcus Aurelius. Christians were liable to persecution in the time of Antoninus Pius and the whole implication of Justin's first apology (written during the time of Antoninus Pius) is that this was a real issue during this period.

Andrew Criddle