Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

Stephan Huller wrote:I don't know if by 'edited later' Markus Bockmuehl means 'ten years later' or what I suggest but it is worth citing his work:

"Justin's Dialogue with Trypho is set in the 130s, although it may have been edited later." [Simon Peter in Scripture and Memory: The New Testament]

I seem to remember that the story of the "recent troubles," which had caused Trypho to be where Justin is supposed to have found him, could relate to conditions present either during the war of 66-73 (in Judea/Galilee) or to the ones in the 110s (in Egypt & Cyprus) and later the 130s (in Judea). It has been suggested that the account of Trypho as found in Justin's Dialogue could have been a literary adaptation of an account from an earlier period. However, I am happy to think that the simplest explanation, that the "dialogue" (whether fictional/rhetorical or actual) happened during Justin' youth, and thus the troubles refer to the war of the 130s.

DCH

At least all the smart people are engaged in THIS discussion. Remember I asked for evidence of persecutions LIKE the ones described in the Dialogue. In other words, MASS persecutions, across the board involving specifically Marcionites (unless we take the text literally and assume followers of these groups:

Some are called Marcians, and some Valentinians, and some Basilidians, and some Saturnilians, and others by other names

Bullshit. Not only is this list of heresies just drawn from a syntagma somewhere the idea here is that Christians were dying en masse but only the Catholics 'confess' truly. This is a concept that has everything to do with Irenaeus and nothing to do with Justin. It reminds me of a distinction made by Irenaeus at the beginning I think of Book Four (it's early from memory). Now before someone jumps and says 'there are parallels in Irenaeus where he borrowed from Justin' Justin never wrote these words, these persecutions never happened the way described, they are just IMAGINARY persecutions, of IMAGINARY groups, with IMAGINARY distinctions of 'true' and 'false' confessors - an idea that first appears in Irenaeus's letters to the Asian churches about the martyrs in Gaul and then reappear later in Adv Haer

There is no way to reconcile this account as (a) historical and then (b) with the distinction between imaginary heretical groups and then (c) for the doctrinal points that could only have been made by Irenaeus. It is a third example that the text was edited after 177 CE. No one thought like this before Irenaeus.

So to recap I have found:

1. a description of an allotment of Arabia to Syrophoenicia (you miss the point Spin, it is not the name Syrophoenicia it is the description of what happened to Arabia that is at issue)
2. the use of certain terminology only used by Justin and Irenaeus with any frequency
3. the description of imaginary persecutions of imaginary heretical groups in an early period with imaginary theological distinctions

all of which demonstrate that the text was edited by Irenaeus in a latter period with substantial revisions of the text.

Stephan Huller wrote:At least all the smart people are engaged in THIS discussion. Remember I asked for evidence of persecutions LIKE the ones described in the Dialogue. In other words, MASS persecutions, across the board involving specifically Marcionites (unless we take the text literally and assume followers of these groups:

Some are called Marcians, and some Valentinians, and some Basilidians, and some Saturnilians, and others by other names

Bullshit. Not only is this list of heresies just drawn from a syntagma somewhere the idea here is that Christians were dying en masse but only the Catholics 'confess' truly. This is a concept that has everything to do with Irenaeus and nothing to do with Justin. It reminds me of a distinction made by Irenaeus at the beginning I think of Book Four (it's early from memory). Now before someone jumps and says 'there are parallels in Irenaeus where he borrowed from Justin' Justin never wrote these words, these persecutions never happened the way described, they are just IMAGINARY persecutions, of IMAGINARY groups, with IMAGINARY distinctions of 'true' and 'false' confessors - an idea that first appears in Irenaeus's letters to the Asian churches about the martyrs in Gaul and then reappear later in Adv Haer

There is no way to reconcile this account as (a) historical and then (b) with the distinction between imaginary heretical groups and then (c) for the doctrinal points that could only have been made by Irenaeus. It is a third example that the text was edited after 177 CE. No one thought like this before Irenaeus.

I think you may be misunderstanding what the Dialogue is claiming.
I think that the point is not that orthodox and heretical Christian are both being killed. (although it seems unlikely that persecutors would be all that accurate in who they rounded up.) IIUC the Dialogue is claiming that as well as the orthodox 'true' Christians there are all these weird groups who also claim (confess) to being Christians and who give 'real' Christians a bad reputation.

I don't think that when the Dialogue refers to non-orthodox 'confessing' to being Christians it primarily means admitting at trial. It primarily means that they claim (like the orthodox) to be Christians but [according to Justin] aren't really.

Andrew Criddle

To DCH

If it is agreed (as I think it must be) that Justin wrote something at one period in history and then the text later was completely reworked - if that scenario is conceded as I think you, me, Bockmuehl and anyone else who has ever tried to reconcile all the conflicting historical markers in the Dialogue has agreed, then the question comes down to WHEN the text was edited. I put forward that only the editing of the text by Irenaeus accounts for all the anomalies. There are a lot of weird features of the text. It leads me to the conclusion that this wasn't just 'editing' but what I like to think of as the 'bullshitification' of the text. In other words, Justin becomes the witness of various ideas originally found only in Irenaeus which bears a remarkable similarity for what Irenaeus says about Justin - i.e. 'Justin agrees with all the bullshit I spew forth.' (Adv Haer 4.25.1)

These aren't accidental 'edits' or minor reshaping of an original dialogue. It is an overt attempt to make Justin's Dialogue the mouthpiece for bullshit associated with Irenaeus. Part of that bullshitification of the text is to attest and date heretics to a certain period but that's only one part of the effort.

On an additional note Karl Gottlob Semisch notes the following examples of the general sloppiness of the reworking:

Lastly, as to what concerns the integrity of the Dialogue ; though we cannot say that it contains direct interpolations, such as Rettig imagines he has found, and of which, by the heljf of an ill-directed acuteness, he has attempted to give an instance, namely, in the testimony of the Johannean origin of the New Testament Apocalypse, still it appears that the Dialogue has not come down to us altogether perfect For, according to several statements in it, the conversation between Justin and Trypho lasted two days, and yet no passage can be found which precisely indicates where the oonrersation of the first day breaks off and that of the second begins. There are also references to discossions that had already taken place, of which the Dialogue, in its present state gives no further account. If it be asked in what part there is probably a iiiatus where the close of the first day*s conversation aod the beginning of the next are lost ; — it must be looked for within the portion c. 70, p. 1 68, p. (p. 296, B.) c. 78? P« 175, (p. 304, A.) for, at the latter point, Justin remarks (greek text) " I have repeated to you that Isaiah prophesied concerning the symbol which related to the cave, but, on account of those who came with us to-day, I will repeat the passage, and I have repeated the passage which I before copied from Isaiah, saying, ' that thou who taught the mysteries of Mythra were impelled by the devil to say, that in a place named a cave by them, they were initated by them ;' " —and the discussion to which he refers in these words is in c. 70, p. 168, (p. 296, B.^ Also in c. 74> p. 172, (p. 300, A.) there is an evident hiatus between the words (greek), and (greek) etc. [Justin Martyr: His Life, Writings, and Opinions, Volume 41 p 116 - 117]

Andrew,

Really? This is not about the mass persecutions of Christians (I will embolden the words which point to this situation):

Justin: I venture to repeat what is written in the book of Kings as committed by him, how through a woman's influence he worshipped the idols of Sidon, which those of the Gentiles who know God, the Maker of all things through Jesus the crucified, do not venture to do, but abide every torture and vengeance even to the extremity of death, rather than worship idols, or eat meat offered to idols.

Trypho: I believe, however, that many of those who say that they confess Jesus, and are called Christians, eat meats offered to idols, and declare that they are by no means injured in consequence.

Justin: The fact that there are such men confessing themselves to be Christians, and admitting the crucified Jesus to be both Lord and Christ, yet not teaching His doctrines, but those of the spirits of error, causes us who are disciples of the true and pure doctrine of Jesus Christ, to be more faithful and steadfast in the hope announced by Him. For what things He predicted would take place in His name, these we do see being actually accomplished in our sight. For he said, 'Many shall come in My name, clothed outwardly in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.' Matthew 7:15 And, 'There shall be schisms and heresies.' 1 Corinthians 11:19 And, 'Beware of false prophets, who shall come to you clothed outwardly in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.' Matthew 7:15 And, 'Many false Christs and false apostles shall arise, and shall deceive many of the faithful.' Matthew 24:11 There are, therefore, and there were many, my friends, who, coming forward in the name of Jesus, taught both to speak and act impious and blasphemous things; and these are called by us after the name of the men from whom each doctrine and opinion had its origin. (For some in one way, others in another, teach to blaspheme the Maker of all things, and Christ, who was foretold by Him as coming, and the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, with whom we have nothing in common, since we know them to be atheists, impious, unrighteous, and sinful, and confessors of Jesus in name only, instead of worshippers of Him. Yet they style themselves Christians, just as certain among the Gentiles inscribe the name of God upon the works of their own hands, and partake in nefarious and impious rites.) Some are called Marcians, and some Valentinians, and some Basilidians, and some Saturnilians, and others by other names; each called after the originator of the individual opinion, just as each one of those who consider themselves philosophers, as I said before, thinks he must bear the name of the philosophy which he follows, from the name of the father of the particular doctrine. So that, in consequence of these events, we know that Jesus foreknew what would happen after Him, as well as in consequence of many other events which He foretold would befall those who believed on and confessed Him, the Christ. For all that we suffer, even when killed by friends, He foretold would take place; so that it is manifest no word or act of His can be found fault with. Wherefore we pray for you and for all other men who hate us; in order that you, having repented along with us, may not blaspheme Him who, by His works, by the mighty deeds even now wrought through His name, by the words He taught, by the prophecies announced concerning Him, is the blameless, and in all things irreproachable, Christ Jesus; but, believing on Him, may be saved in His second glorious advent, and may not be condemned to fire by Him [1 Apology 34 - 35].

So this is not about the mass persecution of Christians some of which eat meat sacrificed to idols as the Valentinians are said to have done in numerous occasions. This doesn't read like a statement written by Irenaeus after 177 CE? Really? This doesn't sound anything like any other statement made by Justin in any of his other works.

Stephan Huller wrote:I don't know if by 'edited later' Markus Bockmuehl means 'ten years later' or what I suggest but it is worth citing his work:

"Justin's Dialogue with Trypho is set in the 130s, although it may have been edited later." [Simon Peter in Scripture and Memory: The New Testament]

I'm pretty sure he means that Justin probably edited the dialogue later. I can't find any evidence that he doubts that the work is substantively by Justin.

Andrew Criddle

Here is a closely paralleled passage in Irenaeus Adv Haer 4:26

Wherefore the Church does in every place, because of that love which she cherishes towards God, send forward, throughout all time, a multitude of martyrs to the Father; while all others not only have nothing of this kind to point to among themselves, but even maintain that such witness-bearing is not at all necessary, for that their system of doctrines is the true witness [for Christ], with the exception, perhaps, that one or two among them, during the whole time which has elapsed since the Lord appeared on earth, have occasionally, along with our martyrs, borne the reproach of the name (as if he too [the heretic] had obtained mercy), and have been led forth with them [to death], being, as it were, a sort of retinue granted unto them. For the Church alone sustains with purity the reproach of those who suffer persecution for righteousness' sake, and endure all sorts of punishments, and are put to death because of the love which they bear to God, and their confession of His Son; often weakened indeed, yet immediately increasing her members, and becoming whole again, after the same manner as her type, Lot's wife, who became a pillar of salt. Thus, too, [she passes through an experience] similar to that of the ancient prophets, as the Lord declares, “For so persecuted they the prophets who were before you;” Matthew 5:12 inasmuch as she does indeed, in a new fashion, suffer persecution from those who do not receive the word of God, while the self-same spirit rests upon her 1 Peter 4:14 [as upon these ancient prophets,

10. And indeed the prophets, along with other things which they predicted, also foretold this, that all those on whom the Spirit of God should rest, and who would obey the word of the Father, and serve Him according to their ability, should suffer persecution, and be stoned and slain. For the prophets prefigured in themselves all these things, because of their love to God, and on account of His word. For since they themselves were members of Christ, each one of them in his place as a member did, in accordance with this, set forth the prophecy [assigned him]; all of them, although many, prefiguring only one, and proclaiming the things which pertain to one. For just as the working of the whole body is exhibited through means of our members, while the figure of a complete man is not displayed by one member, but through means of all taken together, so also did all the prophets prefigure the one [Christ]; while every one of them, in his special place as a member, did, in accordance with this, fill up the [established] dispensation, and shadowed forth beforehand that particular working of Christ which was connected with that member.

Andrew

That 'Industrool' is just repeating a point I made VERBATIM in his own name. He is probably a robot.

Stephan Huller wrote:Andrew,

Really? This is not about the mass persecutions of Christians (I will embolden the words which point to this situation):

Justin: I venture to repeat what is written in the book of Kings as committed by him, how through a woman's influence he worshipped the idols of Sidon, which those of the Gentiles who know God, the Maker of all things through Jesus the crucified, do not venture to do, but abide every torture and vengeance even to the extremity of death, rather than worship idols, or eat meat offered to idols.

Trypho: I believe, however, that many of those who say that they confess Jesus, and are called Christians, eat meats offered to idols, and declare that they are by no means injured in consequence.

Justin: The fact that there are such men confessing themselves to be Christians, and admitting the crucified Jesus to be both Lord and Christ, yet not teaching His doctrines, but those of the spirits of error, causes us who are disciples of the true and pure doctrine of Jesus Christ, to be more faithful and steadfast in the hope announced by Him. For what things He predicted would take place in His name, these we do see being actually accomplished in our sight. For he said, 'Many shall come in My name, clothed outwardly in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.' Matthew 7:15 And, 'There shall be schisms and heresies.' 1 Corinthians 11:19 And, 'Beware of false prophets, who shall come to you clothed outwardly in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.' Matthew 7:15 And, 'Many false Christs and false apostles shall arise, and shall deceive many of the faithful.' Matthew 24:11 There are, therefore, and there were many, my friends, who, coming forward in the name of Jesus, taught both to speak and act impious and blasphemous things; and these are called by us after the name of the men from whom each doctrine and opinion had its origin. (For some in one way, others in another, teach to blaspheme the Maker of all things, and Christ, who was foretold by Him as coming, and the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, with whom we have nothing in common, since we know them to be atheists, impious, unrighteous, and sinful, and confessors of Jesus in name only, instead of worshippers of Him. Yet they style themselves Christians, just as certain among the Gentiles inscribe the name of God upon the works of their own hands, and partake in nefarious and impious rites.) Some are called Marcians, and some Valentinians, and some Basilidians, and some Saturnilians, and others by other names; each called after the originator of the individual opinion, just as each one of those who consider themselves philosophers, as I said before, thinks he must bear the name of the philosophy which he follows, from the name of the father of the particular doctrine. So that, in consequence of these events, we know that Jesus foreknew what would happen after Him, as well as in consequence of many other events which He foretold would befall those who believed on and confessed Him, the Christ. For all that we suffer, even when killed by friends, He foretold would take place; so that it is manifest no word or act of His can be found fault with. Wherefore we pray for you and for all other men who hate us; in order that you, having repented along with us, may not blaspheme Him who, by His works, by the mighty deeds even now wrought through His name, by the words He taught, by the prophecies announced concerning Him, is the blameless, and in all things irreproachable, Christ Jesus; but, believing on Him, may be saved in His second glorious advent, and may not be condemned to fire by Him [1 Apology 34 - 35].

So this is not about the mass persecution of Christians some of which eat meat sacrificed to idols as the Valentinians are said to have done in numerous occasions. This doesn't read like a statement written by Irenaeus after 177 CE? Really? This doesn't sound anything like any other statement made by Justin in any of his other works.

Hi Stephan

This is clearly a situation in which Christians are liable to be persecuted. Are actually being killed.
What is not clear is that mass persecution is involved, (there is strong rhetoric in the dialogue but that is another matter). Nor can I see evidence that non-orthodox Christians are clearly being persecuted. The point seems to be to distinguish between orthodox Christians who stand firm for 'real' Christian teaching even if it costs them their lives, and the others who claim to be Christians but do not stand firm for Christian values in the same way.

The passage from Irenaeus book 4 is clearly related to Justin (I can't see such clear parallels in the account of the Martyrs of Lyons) but it is not IMO clear that the pasage in the Dialogue is later than the pasage in Irenaeus. Justin is concerned that ordinary people get confused about who are 'real' Christians and who only claim to be and hence get a bad opinion of 'real Christians. Irenaeus is saying that the 'real' Christians can be seen by their preparedness to die for their faith unlike the heretics.

Andrew Criddle