Dating Papias

[rgprice]

From what I can see, establishing a date for the writings of Papias is quite controversial, as is much of anything about him. Anyone have some good resources on Papias?

[perseusomega9]

MacDonald in Two Shipwrecked Gospels: The Logoi of Jesus and Papias's Exposition of Logia about the Lord uses him to carefully show why Luke is dependent on him, thereby dating Luke to a decade or so into the 1st quarter of the second century.

[perseusomega9]

I'll let Andrew announce his colleague's recent book (I have not yet read).

[perseusomega9]

I have scanned a few monographs/texts that just focus on Papias and let me tell you, there are a lot of scholars that buy into the standard date and then waste 400 pages of ink, so their best function is the bibliography and citations.

[John2]

As noted on pages 30-31 of Philip, Apostle and Evangelist, "Eusebius nowhere goes beyond Trajan's time" in EH 3 (in which Papias is discussed) "and in fact still treats this period at the start of book 4" and that "a date before 110 CE for his writing is to be preferred."

There has been a propensity among modern scholars to date Papias' writing during the reign of Hadrian (117-138 GE) or later rather than earlier, although the reasoning behind such estimates is often not spelled out. Eusebius considers Papias in connection with his treatment of Polycarp, Ignatius, and Clement of Rome during the reign of Trajan (98~117 CE). As Vernon Bartlet has pointed out, in the third book of the Historia ecclesiastica, Eusebius nowhere goes beyond Trajan's time, and in fact still treats this period at the start of book four. "Eusebius . . . saw no reason . . . to infer from internal evidence that Papias wrote after rather than before A.D. 110, though he is at pains to refute Irenaeus's statement that Papias was actually 'a hearer and eye-witness of the sacred Apostles.' " Bartlet's view has recently been confirmed by Ulrich Kortner, whose interpretation of the Papias fragments substantiates the early date suggested by Eusebius' relative chronology. Kortner argues persuasively that the polemical function of Papias' work, the Tradentenkreis of the presbyters, and Papias' association with the daughters of Philip are all more suited to a time around 110 than the middle of the second century. Since there is no convincing reason to dispute Papias' contact with the daughters of Philip, a date before 110 CE for his writing is to be preferred, lest we find ourselves constantly rewarding early Christian figures with extraordinary life spans.


https://www.google.com/books/edition/Ph ... frontcover

[Ben C. Smith]

From what I can see, establishing a date for the writings of Papias is quite controversial, as is much of anything about him. Anyone have some good resources on Papias?

MacDonald in Two Shipwrecked Gospels: The Logoi of Jesus and Papias's Exposition of Logia about the Lord uses him to carefully show why Luke is dependent on him, thereby dating Luke to a decade or so into the 1st quarter of the second century.

The most detailed treatments of Papias since the days of Lightfoot have tended to be published in languages other than English (German for Körtner, for example, or Italian for Norelli, upon whom MacDonald relies a great deal). But this trend may be about to change, since S. C. Carlson is publishing a comprehensive list of the Papian fragments soon.

I definitely recommend Two Shipwrecked Gospels on this topic, as perseusomega9 suggests. Gundry also has a solid discussion of the dating issues in an appendix to his commentary on Mark. Other treatments I have profited from at least in some way would include:

“Papias on the Age of Our Lord,” by John Chapman.
“The Elder John, Papias, Irenaeus, Eusebius, and the Syriac Translator,” by Benjamin W. Bacon.
“Marcion, Papias, and the Elders,” by Benjamin W. Bacon.
“For Mark was Peter’s Tana: Tradition and Transmission in Papias and the Early Rabbis,” by Azzan Yadin-Israel.
“Papias and the Gospels,” by Richard Bauckham.
“The Use and Abuse of Papias on the Fourth Gospel,” by D. Gregory Dix.
“The Gospel of Matthew, John the Elder, and the Papias Tradition: A Response to R. H. Gundry,” by David C. Sim.

The Johannine Question, by Martin Hengel.
The Johannine Corpus in the Early Church, by Charles E. Hill.
Marcion and the Dating of the Synoptic Gospels, pages 12-26, by Markus Vinzent.
Jesus and the Eyewitnesses, by Richard Bauckham.

[perseusomega9]

I second Ben's recommendation of Vinzent above.

[perseusomega9]

As noted on pages 30-31 of Philip, Apostle and Evangelist, "Eusebius nowhere goes beyond Trajan's time" in EH 3 (in which Papias is discussed) "and in fact still treats this period at the start of book 4" and that "a date before 110 CE for his writing is to be preferred."

There has been a propensity among modern scholars to date Papias' writing during the reign of Hadrian (117-138 GE) or later rather than earlier, although the reasoning behind such estimates is often not spelled out. Eusebius considers Papias in connection with his treatment of Polycarp, Ignatius, and Clement of Rome during the reign of Trajan (98~117 CE). As Vernon Bartlet has pointed out, in the third book of the Historia ecclesiastica, Eusebius nowhere goes beyond Trajan's time, and in fact still treats this period at the start of book four. "Eusebius . . . saw no reason . . . to infer from internal evidence that Papias wrote after rather than before A.D. 110, though he is at pains to refute Irenaeus's statement that Papias was actually 'a hearer and eye-witness of the sacred Apostles.' " Bartlet's view has recently been confirmed by Ulrich Kortner, whose interpretation of the Papias fragments substantiates the early date suggested by Eusebius' relative chronology. Kortner argues persuasively that the polemical function of Papias' work, the Tradentenkreis of the presbyters, and Papias' association with the daughters of Philip are all more suited to a time around 110 than the middle of the second century. Since there is no convincing reason to dispute Papias' contact with the daughters of Philip, a date before 110 CE for his writing is to be preferred, lest we find ourselves constantly rewarding early Christian figures with extraordinary life spans.


https://www.google.com/books/edition/Ph ... frontcover

see my viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7613&p=117364#p117359immediately above this quote

[Ben C. Smith]

I have more or less given up on dating Papias absolutely. I mainly focus on dating him relative to other authors and texts.

[John2]

As noted on pages 30-31 of Philip, Apostle and Evangelist, "Eusebius nowhere goes beyond Trajan's time" in EH 3 (in which Papias is discussed) "and in fact still treats this period at the start of book 4" and that "a date before 110 CE for his writing is to be preferred."

There has been a propensity among modern scholars to date Papias' writing during the reign of Hadrian (117-138 GE) or later rather than earlier, although the reasoning behind such estimates is often not spelled out. Eusebius considers Papias in connection with his treatment of Polycarp, Ignatius, and Clement of Rome during the reign of Trajan (98~117 CE). As Vernon Bartlet has pointed out, in the third book of the Historia ecclesiastica, Eusebius nowhere goes beyond Trajan's time, and in fact still treats this period at the start of book four. "Eusebius . . . saw no reason . . . to infer from internal evidence that Papias wrote after rather than before A.D. 110, though he is at pains to refute Irenaeus's statement that Papias was actually 'a hearer and eye-witness of the sacred Apostles.' " Bartlet's view has recently been confirmed by Ulrich Kortner, whose interpretation of the Papias fragments substantiates the early date suggested by Eusebius' relative chronology. Kortner argues persuasively that the polemical function of Papias' work, the Tradentenkreis of the presbyters, and Papias' association with the daughters of Philip are all more suited to a time around 110 than the middle of the second century. Since there is no convincing reason to dispute Papias' contact with the daughters of Philip, a date before 110 CE for his writing is to be preferred, lest we find ourselves constantly rewarding early Christian figures with extraordinary life spans.


https://www.google.com/books/edition/Ph ... frontcover

see my viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7613&p=117364#p117359immediately above this quote

Do you dispute that Eusebius "nowhere goes beyond Trajan's time" in the book he discusses Papias? If not, then do you not see that as an indication that Papias wrote no later than Trajan's time?