Dating Papias

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
rgprice
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Re: Dating Papias

Post by rgprice »

The more I think about it the more Papias doesn't make sense.

This is from Eusebius :
For information on these points, we can merely refer our readers to the books themselves; but now, to the extracts already made, we shall add, as being a matter of primary importance, a tradition regarding Mark who wrote the Gospel, which he [Papias] has given in the following words]: And the presbyter said this. Mark having become the interpreter of Peter, wrote down accurately whatsoever he remembered. It was not, however, in exact order that he related the sayings or deeds of Christ. For he neither heard the Lord nor accompanied Him. But afterwards, as I said, he accompanied Peter, who accommodated his instructions to the necessities [of his hearers], but with no intention of giving a regular narrative of the Lord's sayings. Wherefore Mark made no mistake in thus writing some things as he remembered them. For of one thing he took especial care, not to omit anything he had heard, and not to put anything fictitious into the statements. [This is what is related by Papias regarding Mark; but with regard to Matthew he has made the following statements]: Matthew put together the oracles [of the Lord] in the Hebrew language, and each one interpreted them as best he could. [The same person uses proofs from the First Epistle of John, and from the Epistle of Peter in like manner. And he also gives another story of a woman who was accused of many sins before the Lord, which is to be found in the Gospel according to the Hebrews.]
All the references to Papias: http://www.textexcavation.com/papias.html

From what I see, Eusebius is the only one who claims that Papias said something about Mark and Matthew. Everyone else who says it appears to be copying from Eusebius .

But what Eusebius attributes to Papias doesn't make sense. Firstly, note that even Eusebius indicates that what he attributes to Papias isn't in Papias' own writings.

But if we assume Papias were to make this statement around 110, then clearly there is yet no canon nor even knowledge of the four Gospels. Following David Trobisch, who seems to really know WTF he's talking about, the logic behind these names didn't really arise until the establishment of the first edition of the whole New Testament. Where would Papias have plucked these names from? One can argue that Papias maybe pulled them from thin air or got them from some tradition, and then later justifications for these names were developed, but this seems highly doubtful, especially given that Eusebius appears to be the first person to attribute these claims to Papias. It appears that the names Luke and Mark are drawn from the letters of Paul, but Papias shows no knowledge of Paul.

Why would Papias say that Mark wrote down what Peter said? The whole idea of justifying the merit of this account by tying it to Peter is a much later concept. Why would someone in 110 think that the account of Mark would need to be justified by tying it back to the primary apostle? The establishment of Peter as the "patron apostle" of the Roman church had presumably not even happened yet. Why would Papias make a statement about Mark being out of order? This sounds like a justification that one would only make against the full four Gospel collection. Sure we can claim that he has Matthew to compare against, but if Papias only knows Matthew and Mark and has no concept of a canon yet, then why would he even be making these judgements or even be concerned with this subject? The whole topic doesn't sound relevant to someone from 110ish.

Furthermore, that the epistles of John and Peter even existed in 110 is highly doubtful. But even if they did, we are to believe that this Papias is busy making proofs from these two very writings which appear later in the canon? But in reality we have very good cause to believe that the epistle of John was written after the Gospel of John and that the Gospel of John is quite late. This whole statement from Eusebius sounds entirely bogus.

And why would Papias, without any other context, attribute this Gospel to an associate of Peter? In the Gospel of Mark Jesus calls Peter Satan! Why in Hell would someone think that Peter would give an account in which he says that Jesus called him Satan? That makes no sense at all. Rather, the tradition tying the Gospel to Peter makes sense in light of the four fold tradition, because Matthew was said to be an eyewitness account, John was said to be an eyewitness account, and then they needed two Gospels that could be tied to the two primary apostles of Paul and Peter. The Gospel of Luke was tied to Paul as a way to appropriate Marcion's Gospel and Marcion's hold on Paul. By attributing Luke to an associate of Paul's the orthodox were able to claim, against Marcion, that they had a Gospel that was in fact an account from Paul himself (despite the fact that everyone knew Paul didn't write a Gospel.) To balance this out they also needed a Gospel that could be attributed to Peter. So just as in Acts of the Apostles, where Peter and Paul are balanced against one another, they needed a comparable balancing between Peter and Paul in the tradition of the Evangelists as well.

Thus, it was only at this time that assigning Mark to an interpreter of Peter made sense. Logically, the association of Mark with Peter only makes sense as the very last assignment of tradition, after basically all the other Gospels had been designated. This also makes sense of the fact that Peter is associated with this anti-Peter Gospel, because it was basically the only Gospel left.

My assumption is that the name Mark was assigned to the Gospel called Mark prior to any association between Mark and Peter. Most likely, the name Mark came from the letters of Paul and was assigned with no intention of an association to Peter. The association with Peter was just a later tradition used to balance out the tradition against Paul. So, this really is not possibly something that some real Papias could have said circa 110.
rgprice
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Re: Dating Papias

Post by rgprice »

To follow up. Here's what I think happened. Following Trobisch, I think the name "Gospel of Mark" was assigned by the writer of the first edition of the orthodox New Testament circa 150 CE. That person made no connection between the Gospel of Mark and Peter. That person was actually tying the Gospel of Mark to Paul, hence the name Mark, which that same person had also put into the letter of Timothy along with Luke. So, the editor of the first edition wrote the Pastorals, in which he built up the names Mark and Luke (from Philemon), and then gave those names to two of the Gospels.

Later, however, the Catholics wanted to balance out the association of the Gospels between Peter and Paul, in the same way that Peter and Paul are balanced out in Acts of the Apostles. The Roman church couldn't have too much emphasis on Paul after all. Thus, Eusebius himself invented this bogus tradition about Papias, in which he claimed that Papias, the first witness to a Gospel, knew that this Gospel came from an associate of Peter's in the same way that Luke came from an associate of Paul's. The association of Mark with Peter only makes sense in the context of the fourfold tradition; such an association would never have been made prior to that. The Gospel of Mark is clearly an anti-Peterine work.
hakeem
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Re: Dating Papias

Post by hakeem »

rgprice wrote: ........Papias shows no knowledge of Paul.......
Again, we have another source that shows that Paul and the Epistles were late writings. Virtually all Christian and non-Christian writers up to the end of the 2nd century wrote nothing or showed no influence of the supposed Paul and his letters.

In Jerome's De Viris Illustribus Papias appears to have no knowledge of Paul, has none of his writings and never heard of him.

De Viris Illustribus18
Papias, the pupil of John, bishop of Hierapolis in Asia, wrote only five volumes, which he entitled Exposition of the words of our Lord, in which, when he had asserted in his preface that he did not follow various opinions but had the apostles for authority, he said I considered what Andrew and Peter said, what Philip, what Thomas, what James, what John, what Matthew or any one else among the disciples of our Lord, what also Aristion and the elder John, disciples of the Lord had said, not so much that I have their books to read, as that their living voice is heard until the present day in the authors themselves.

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MrMacSon
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Re: Dating Papias

Post by MrMacSon »

rgprice wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:16 am Later, however, the Catholics wanted to balance out the association of the Gospels between Peter and Paul, in the same way that Peter and Paul are balanced out in Acts of the Apostles.
I don't quite follow that proposition, though can see what you getting at in general.

Do you mean the Catholics wanted to balance out Peter and Paul in general, or that the Catholics wanted to balance out the association between Peter and Paul in the Gospels?
rgprice
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Re: Dating Papias

Post by rgprice »

MrMacSon wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:37 am
rgprice wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:16 am Later, however, the Catholics wanted to balance out the association of the Gospels between Peter and Paul, in the same way that Peter and Paul are balanced out in Acts of the Apostles.
I don't quite follow that proposition, though can see what you getting at in general.

Do you mean the Catholics wanted to balance out Peter and Paul in general, or that the Catholics wanted to balance out the association between Peter and Paul in the Gospels?
When you look at Acts for example, what you see is that Peter and Paul are made mirror images of each other. We see this a lot in later traditions of the mid-second century onward. If Paul is said to have done something then a similar tradition is made about Peter. For example, Paul was said to be martyred in Rome, so too Peter. Paul preached in Rome, so too Peter.

An associate of Paul's wrote a Gospel (Luke), so a Gospel needed to be attributed to an associate of Peter's also.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Dating Papias

Post by MrMacSon »

:thumbup: :cheers:
davidmartin
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Re: Dating Papias

Post by davidmartin »

The doctrine of hell clearly comes from the Peter side not the Paul side. This alone indicates the 2nd century church mixed together various traditions and didn't have the single apostolic origin that they claimed they did
hakeem
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Re: Dating Papias

Post by hakeem »

rgprice wrote: When you look at Acts for example, what you see is that Peter and Paul are made mirror images of each other. We see this a lot in later traditions of the mid-second century onward. If Paul is said to have done something then a similar tradition is made about Peter. For example, Paul was said to be martyred in Rome, so too Peter. Paul preached in Rome, so too Peter.
The pattern is always consistent in Christian writings--Peter is first and Paul is last.

In Christian writings, Peter went to Rome in the 2nd year of Claudius [c 43 CE] but Paul went to Rome when Festus was governor of Judea [c 59-62].

Even in the Epistles the supposed Paul claimed he was the last [after the apostles] to be seen of the resurrected Jesus. Paul is always last.
rgprice wrote:An associate of Paul's wrote a Gospel (Luke), so a Gospel needed to be attributed to an associate of Peter's also.
Again, we have the very same scenario. The supposed associate of Peter wrote the earliest Synoptic Gospel [gMark] but the supposed associate of Paul wrote the last [gLuke].

Look in Acts--the name Peter is introduced in the very first chapter but the name Paul is introduced in the 13th chapter. Peter is first --Paul is last.

In Acts thousands of persons had already been converted by Peter before Paul.

It is clear that the Pauline character was a very late invention in an attempt to change earlier doctrines of the Christian cult.
davidmartin
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Re: Dating Papias

Post by davidmartin »

It is clear that the Pauline character was a very late invention in an attempt to change earlier doctrines of the Christian cult
and yet that doesn't explain hell which Paul did not preach
if he were invented later he would preach what the later church believed but he does not preach hell
thus, it stands to reason that Paul was earlier and it was the later church that eventually accepted hell
that does not mean that the later church didn't attempt to smooth over and harmonise differences with Peter as we see in Acts
what are you trying to prove,
hakeem
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Re: Dating Papias

Post by hakeem »

davidmartin wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:44 am
It is clear that the Pauline character was a very late invention in an attempt to change earlier doctrines of the Christian cult
and yet that doesn't explain hell which Paul did not preach
if he were invented later he would preach what the later church believed but he does not preach hell
thus, it stands to reason that Paul was earlier and it was the later church that eventually accepted hell
that does not mean that the later church didn't attempt to smooth over and harmonise differences with Peter as we see in Acts
what are you trying to prove,
What you say doesn't make sense. In the very Epistles themselves the letter writer claimed he persecuted those who preached the faith-- the very faith he tried to destroy

AMP Galatians 1.23
they only kept hearing, “He who used to persecute us is now preaching the [good news of the] faith which he once was trying to destroy.”

AMP 1Corinthians 15:9
For I am the least [worthy] of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I [at one time] fiercely oppressed and violently persecuted the church of God.

It is impossible for the persecutor of the faith to be the first to preach the faith. Impossible.
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